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Latest Posts by novelabs

re: Lucius Tiberius & Artoria fighting, they did. Bedivere has a line for Lucius in his Mats profile which says that they fought and that he took "Lucius" as his Camelot alias because history recorded Lucius as killing him during their battle; even though Bedi actually survived, he was basically a walking dead man by Camelot anyway, so he called himself "Lucius" in reference to that.

Interesting! If Arthur fought Lucius defensively though, would the same apply to Artoria, or did she conquer Rome?

thanks for the tl;dr. While I don't agree with all your opinions, I get where you're coming from. Highkey, if you don't mind, what do think of Urobuchi as a writer? I frankly can't stand the man's writings, not only in regards to his "DeCoNsTrUcTiOn" of the magical girl genre with Madoka, but also Fate/Zero and his work on Kamen Rider Gaim.

It's......really hard for me to not blame Urobutcher himself for how Madoka basically killed the entire magical girl genre by causing it to be flooded with edgy tryhard tortureporn.

Like from an objective and analytical standpoint, Madoka is an incredible and meticulously crafted story. ...but subjectively, i fucking hate it, and then on top of that also hate it for what it (again, indirectly) did the genre and really just mainstreem anime in general to a certain, albeit obviously much lesser, degree. I feel like that's an entirely different discussion though, and really it just boils down to a case of "it's good" and "I don't like it" are not mutually exclusive. That's my read anyways.

Fate/Zero i love when watched bit by bit but dont like as a coherent story for much the same subjective reasons I'm personally not a fan of Madoka. For all my negativity I don't actually like nihilistic or cruel stories. Fate/Zero is actually what made me realize that, being the first time I had to as aforementioned go "it's good....but I don't like it." I love pretty much everything that doesn't involve Kerry, which is an issue when the whole story revolves around Kerry.

It's by no means without some serious issues though. Urobutcher wrote Artoria as a completely different character and it causes some serious inconsistencies that had harmful long-term repercussions, the banquet scene is a great setup that as I've discussed before falls completely flat in retrospect because nothing talked about was delivered on, and characters like Abs Hassan and Kariya got beyond wasted, just to name some of my issues with Zero.

But unlike with a LOT of Nasu's writing, actually just FGO writing in general frankly, those flaws don't contradict the ethos of the story. They come across less as contradictions that the writer couldnt be asked to rectify, as much as they do human error and an inability to make everything perfectly coherent and loop back around to the an overarching point. None of the things i've mentioned really detract from the message Fate Zero wants to give. They detract from the quality and consistency of the storytelling, absolutely, but not from the intended purpose of that storytelling. That sort of thing is HUGELY different than something like FGO just making up alternate history to suit it's narrative despite said narrative supposedly being about unity through our shared real world history.

I suppose what it really comes down to is that I don't feel malice or narrow mindedness from Urobutcher's works the way I do from Nasu. Kirei is the best example of this - i'd go so far as to argue Kirei's character didn't have ANY of the depth people now attribute to it before Urobutcher got involved. That's not even a dig at Nasu, that's just how much Urobutcher clearly GETS the kind of character Kirei is [now] meant to be. Same goes for Gilles and Kerry, those are characters that were perfect for someone like Urobutcher to execute (in multiple senses).

Again, Urobutcher is not a flawless writer by any stretch, no one is, and his style is by no means for everyone, because no style SHOULD be universally appealing...but I feel like he very much gives a shit. I feel like whether its all the way back with Fate Zero or his relatively more recent return for Lostbelt 3, Urobutcher gave a shit and did everything with as much purpose as he could. On that ground alone, I'm willing to be a lot more sympathetic to the parts of his writing i don't like, since I can at least convince myself those things (be it intentional choices or simple mistakes) were done in good faith.

Is it just me or does Fate's Mordred never receive any hate for starting her rebellion, which brought an end to Camelot? I know Artoria doesn't like her, but she's the only one. Gawain, who was literally killed by Mordred, is shown to love Mordred like a beloved sibling. I feel like Fate really ignores how guilty Mordred is for the loss of Camelot, and seems to blame Lancelot more due to his affair with Guinevere. What do you think?

I mean, yes. Fate never really makes an attempt to punish Mordred.

From a fan-perspective, there's not much room for hate because he's a solid character in regards to his villainy. He was one of the stronger parts of Apocrypha, and just like Nero served as a strong parallel to Artoria.

But from an in-fiction perspective, it's also that Mordred doesn't really... care. He doesn't care at all, really.

I think a common thing is that people assume that Mordred is a good person. He isn't. He isn't EVIL, but he isn't good either. He does what he wants, and follows just enough of a chivalric code that means that in most cases, he generally ends up doing the 'right' thing. He's a person driven by impulse, unlike the other KoTR that have a stricter moral code. He's one of the few characters that genuinely fits 'Chaotic Neutral'.

Mordred cares about one thing. Artoria. That's it. Not Camelot, not the citizens, not the other knights, just Artoria.

Camelot was a means to an end to take down Artoria- he talks big game about wanting to be king, but also doesn't have much remorse. 'Being king' as a wish was even just a way to lessen Artoria's burden, not to better the kingdom in any discernible way.

So, it's hard to put guilt on a character that is, by design... not that guilty about what they did. Mordred knows he's a traitor. He doesn't care.

Lancelot and Gawain, however, are drowning in guilt. Gawain's just keeping his head above water to stay a Saber, while Lancelot would rather just drown in madness because even lucidity is painful for him. That's because, unlike Mordred, Lancelot and Gawain are fundamentally good people who made horrible mistakes.

The narrative can't draw pain from the fall of Camelot for Mordred, because he doesn't give a shit.

However, a big part about how the knights current treat each other is the narrative of forgiveness. Artoria had the entirety of Stay Night and Zero. Gawain had EXTRA and the Camelot Singularity to genuinely forgive himself and Lancelot. Lancelot had Zero and Camelot Singularity. Tristan, Bedivere, and Agravain had the Camelot Singularity. Gareth will have a new interlude where she addresses her pain with Lancelot. The narrative of taking the second life that they're given as Servants, and appreciating it and their fellow knights.

And while Mordred is brought into the narrative due to being a knight, he isn't as central to it. Which puts him in his own bit of punished limbo- because while the other knights have openly forgiven each other, and him- Artoria hasn't.

And Artoria's the only one who really matters to Mordred.

Gonna ramble for a bit.

Galahad’s portrayal in FGO kinda sucks for like, several reasons, but the main thing is how they underuse his connection with Mash. Like, it was one thing when the theory was ‘Galahad refuses to actively participate in anything relating to Chaldea’, but that got muddled in event after event where he imposes his will onto Mash exclusively to dunk on his father, and that’s it.

Like… Galahad’s whole thing was that he was this incredibly pure, uber-devout knight that constantly spent his time healing people and banishing evil spirits, and they do… ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with that. Mash is defensive sure, and her skills may express that, but like… we fight so many ghosts and evil spirits, and yet there’s no mention of that aspect of Galahad at all.

Galahad’s personality only manifests around Lancelot? And purely to make Mash say rude things to him? For no reason? Which seems notably out of character for both of them, especially since a pretty large teaching in Christianity is ‘turning the other cheek’, which Mash!Galahad doesn’t do in the slightest- which is even weirder because Lancelot isn’t even at FAULT in the relationship, Galahad’s mother is.

Galahad’s relationship with Lancelot wasn’t even that canonically bad. Most of the ‘conflict’ between Lancelot and Galahad came from Galahad TANGENTALLY proving he was better than Lancelot by doing more good deeds and acting more knightly. When Galahad actually fought and beat Lancelot, Lancelot was so impressed that he was the one who ended up knighting him in the first place.

But like… why not have parts of Galahad’s personality manifest in other ways? Why not have Mash find herself drawn towards incredibly religious Christian Servants like Martha and Jeanne? Or have interesting conversations with David or Amakusa? Why not have her feel pity towards Caster Gilles, and maybe a obligation to bring him back to the ‘right path’?

Why not have Mash feel uncomfortable around the Roman Servants (especially Nero), considering Rome was

One of Camelot/Britain’s biggest enemies

Persecuted a ton of Christians, and…

Like, FAMOUSLY KILLED JESUS.

Actually, why don’t any of the Christian Servants express even the slightest bit of ‘eeeehhh…’ around Nero and the other Romans? Outside of the fact that it’s impossible for them to paint Nero and Rome in a slightly negative light. Wait, no. That’s it. That’s the reason.

And these are just a few possibilities, but there are SO many Servants in Chaldea that Mash could interact in a more meaningful way with due to sharing a body with Galahad.

Galahad just feels so stupidly underused during Part 1 and events, and maybe they’re saving some of the more intricate stuff for if he actually shows up as a Servant, but at the same time it feels like they’ll be doing the bare minimum with him.

If Lancelot ran away after killing Agravain then coming back to kill Gareth to rescue Gwen, there was not enough time for a manhunt between the escape and the rescue. She did go to war with Lancelot at Gawain's behest. She turned back to Britain because a rebel broke out, not that she publicly made peace with Lancelot. When exactly did they have time to talk and for Artoria to say he wasn't at fault? Either Lancelot was referring to another incidence, he confused it with another time when the murder of the Orkney siblings hadn't happened or Fate being ambiguously confusing on purpose.

My favorite part about the Nasuverse is how it needlessly crams down the Arthurian mythos. Technically, there should be about 50 years of stuff, and Arthur should have reigned for between 20-30 years. Which gives time for several iterations of the Round Table, ending with the generation of Galahad.

(putting a cut)

Keep reading

Yeah but like, don't you have to be chosen by the planet and be 'worthy' to use Excalibur or something like that??

I do not for the life of me remember how the fuck Excalibur works in fate beyond that Bedi not returning it was what resulted in The Lion King. It's also so subsumed with Caliburn in popular culture that I do not remember where one stops and the other starts most of the time.

The fact that they can shoot beams with it, doesn't that make all of Chaldea sabers?

The 'worthiness' thing is Caliburn, which Fate establishes as a different sword in its canon (which is a familiar take in some versions of Arthuriana, the Caliburn/Excalibur thing is historically kinda muddy).

Excalibur is just an incredibly juiced-up Divine Construct that needs a ton of mana and shoots super lasers that automatically scale in strength depending on how much of a 'threat to humanity' something is. And because of how powerful it is, and how much mana it consumes, will kill people who aren't properly built for using it- like Bedivere. Which is why handing Excalibur to Ritsuka and saying 'use it' would be the fastest way to get a Dead End, because they'd probably die instantly after firing it off.

Luckily, Artoria is built different (Dragon Core), and can use it without dying instantly. She'll just get really tired instead.

So, again, it's a fair weapon to stick on to your massive flying magical super ship, if not pretty energy consuming, so you need to make sure it works when you do fire it off.

True Name: Uther Pendragon Class: Saber Gender: Male Alignment: Lawful Good (believes he is Lawful Neutral) Parameter: Strength: B Endurance: A Agility: C Mana: E Luck: C NP: B+

History: Uther was born as the youngest of three brothers, himself, the Black Dragon Vortigern and the Paranoid Prince Ambrousis. After their father Constantine was died, the eldest son Ambrousis took the throne at the young age of 14. Due to an innate paranoia, the treachery of royal politics and persistent rumors of his father having been poisoned, Ambrousis sought to weed out all potential traitors and dangers to himself In his madness, he killed civilians for speaking unfavorably and nobles for dealing with other nations.

Unable to tolerate his eldest brother’s actions, Uther, alongside the middle child Vortigern, staged a rebellion against Ambrousis, uniting several lords and knights across Britan to wage war against his enthroned and madden kin. Through numerous bloody battles, he forced Ambrousis to met his demise by his own hand, with no small amount of grief and sadness. Soon after, the lords of the land agreed to name him King, something that would come to frustrate his last living brother.

Throughout his reign, he came into conflict with his neighbors/arch enemies the Saxxons. The two kingdoms went to war with each other many, many times, almost always with Uther just barely managing to edge a victory. During these many wars, he was always noted to be seen wandering near lakeside, gazing wistfully out upon the water. One night, on the last of his many walks to the lakes of the land, returned with two twin newborns in hand, girls who he would name Morgan and Morgause and claim as his children. No one is quite certain who the mother of these two was…

Later in life, as the strain of his life came to haunt him, he began to seek an heir to which take his throne upon his increasingly likely death. However, due to lacking a wife and having only daughters who could not be accepted by his kingdom, he looked to his old and trusted friend Merlin. Together, they hatched a plan for Uther to impregnate the lovely Lady Igraine with the king impersonating her lover through Merlin’s magic. Alas, though the child was blessed with the blood of a dragon, it was also yet another daughter, named Arturia. Distraught and despondent, Uther gave up his quest for a successor and left the child in Merlin’s care.

This turn of events alongside the death of his legitimate child Morgause left Uther in the worst of health. His body deteriorated day after day, for years on end until one day, seven years after those events, he died due to a combination of sickness and poison by his lifelong enemies….*

Personality: Quite unlike his successor, Uther is open and friendly man who ruled through trust and familiarity, while not being the best at administration. He warms the hearts of both his retainers and his people with his honesty and openness. Alas, this warmth also lends itself to a certain…fiery temperament in battle.

A man tried to uphold honor and dignity during his life, helping define the code of honor that many among the succeeding generation would uphold as their standard. That said, he could not always uphold it as the conception of his youngest child will tell you. 

Below his surface though, he holds a great many regrets. He laments his killing of his brother, his inability to stop the tyranny of his other sibling, his failure to properly raise the children under his care, his shame at the manipulation of Igraine born from a moment’s weakness and lust and his perceived abandonment of his youngest child. Because of this, he feels rather uncomfortable around most British servants, especially those from his era as it reminds him of his failures. Though, he still trusts and respects Merlin (even holding the distinction of being one of the few people able to catch the flower magus off guard).

He also regrets not having tried to defy the laws of inheritness during his time, as he sees this inaction having caused the many conflicts and pain of his successors.

Noble Phantasm:

Flame Sword of the Dragon King: Caliburn Classification: Anti-Personnel Rank: B+

Born from the legends that he himself wielded Caliburn before lodging it in it’s infamous stone as well as the misconception that he himself had dragon blood- Uther wields an altered version of Caliburn of similar quality to it’s true self. In battle, he can ignite the sword with dragonfire and enhance it’s power before releasing it in an inferno the swallows the opponent. The Noble Phantasm itself is not the sword but rather the technique and skill that Uther uses when swinging the ignited sword.

Relationships:

Merlin

Still views him as a trusted advisor and friend. Wishes he would not inform him of his daughters’ sex life. Holds the distinction of being one of the few people to catch Merlin off guard.

“Ah, Merlin. My old friend! You are truly a sight for these sore eyes… Would I like to hear about my child? … I know you better than to answer yes.”

Arturia Pendragon

A father in name only, he believes. He feels nothing but shame and remorse upon seeing her, believing he does not deserve to be considered among her family. This despite Arturia’s admiration of his own rule.

“… Of course, she is here. The noble King of Knights who did what I could not… No Master, I do not wish to speak with her. I had that chance long ago…”

Arthur Pendragon

Is VERY confused why he has a look alike calling him ‘Father.’ While accepting of the man, Uther can’t help but feel bitter about how things seemed to have worked out for his other self.

“Master? Why is that lad giving me such a strange look? … Arthur Pendragon? My son from another world? … *sigh* Of course I find an heir I could truly pass on to NOW of all times…”

Lancelot

Is quite confused (then amused) that his daughter’s greatest knight is a Frenchman. Uther shares a kinship with him as a fellow knight ashamed of his past. Helps that Lancelot is the first Servant he meets upon arriving at Chaldea.

“Ah sir Lancelot! I was wondering if you and I could partake in a friendly spar sometime soon! Yes yes, I shall try to keep from getting too excited like last time.”

The Orkney Siblings (Gawain, Agravain, Gareth, Garehis)

Uther feels deeply conflicted with the siblings, knowing that they are the children of his one surviving child and yet his own failings as father caused them harm indirectly. He is, however, forced to put these feelings aside as the knights all deeply admire and adore him, having been raised on stories of his heroics. Especially the eldest Gawain.

(Gawain) “Oh, you are…yes, Gawain. Morgan’s eldest son. I shall take my leave. … Wait, You want me to stay? You want to know about my battles? Haha, I-I don’t know what to say.”

(Gareth) “Oh, young Gareth. What a surprise, what brings you to me? … A jousting battle? Young lady, do I appear to be of the Lancer Class in any manner? … Now it’s a sparring match?!”

Vortigern

The mere sight of his elder brother deeply enrages Uther. The pain of his brother Ambrousis’ death dredged up at the sight of the sibling he believes he should have slain, there is no chance that Uther will ever cooperate with Vortigern.

“VORTIGERN! Damn you to hell, you inhuman tyrant!”

Morgan Le Fay Pendragon

To say the sight of his eldest daughter brings Uther pain would be nothing if not an understatement. Pressured by the constant wars and responsibilities as king, along with no partner to help him in raising a family, he could never truly invest himself into Morgan’s life as he wished to. Because of this, the death of her sister and even his own, Morgan walked a path of sacrifice and failure, transforming her into the brutal witch she is known as. All because, in Uther’s eyes, he could not comfort her.

“Morgan, oh Morgan. You have suffered so much, despite never wishing for the throne yourself. Seeking it out for Morgause and myself… Forgive your fool of a father, for he could not save you from this.”

Mordred

He did not recognize her as his kin at first but greatly enjoyed her company. Upon learning of her full heritage, Uther resolved himself to make up for his failures with her parents and help guide her to a better life.

“Ah, Mordred. Come, come. We have much to talk about. Yes yes, I know you feel as though my talks are long winded and boring. But I ask of you: will you allow this old man to indulge talking to his grandchild? Ha ha, no need to blush, I should be thanking you after all.”

*Sorry to any Arthurian myth fans but holy fuck, not only is Fate’s iteration of the Round Table Myth really hard to faithfully adapt the original myth- The myth ITSELF gets really patchy when not directly concerning Arthur. 

Like, the actual villain of early Uther’s life was VORTIGERN, who was NOT his brother. That doesn’t line up with Fate so I had to make the good guy Ambrousis a bad guy. And THEN it turns out that Uther fucked and married Igraine BEFORE Arthur which again doesn’t match up to Fate. So had to change the mother of Morgan and Morgause to someone else just for this to make sense.

What's the difference between Proto Morgan Le Fay and her Fate counterpart? It sounds like Proto Morgan is Chaotic Neutral while Fate's version is straight up evil. Is it because Artoria being a woman who gets to be the King made Fate Morgan even more morally depraved while Arthur being a man means Proto Morgan can't really argue against that fact and it isn't as bad to the point that it could drastically alter her morals? (That being said, they're both still a little loopy in the head.)

So, you’re right. Proto Morgan Le Fey was basically Chaotic Neutral. She’s...not mentally sound in the slightest, but I think that Artoria’s appearance DID push her over the edge. While Arthur looks nothing like Uther, That more helped her hatred not pass to him so much, and she did sometimes help, though she resented that Arthur seemed to just get everything and was the cause of their mother’s death. Still, it’s the law of succession, and she was, while originally hostile, at least willing to eventually judge Arthur for himself. Though...some news about him is why she softens and starts being a little more helpful.

For Fate Morgan, the fact that Artoria was a woman...made it just not fair. Why was SHE the one who was given everything, power, love, success, and even the crown, while Morgan had been forced to watch her happy, loving family get ripped to shreds because of the lust of one man, lost her father, lost her mother, was married off because she was inconvenient, and now she has to watch as some woman who looks so much like her is given a life she longed for at the hands of Merlin, who helped Uther. 

Honestly, I think half the reason Artoria never really went after Fate Morgan is that she couldn’t bring herself to hate the woman, regardless of the trouble she caused.

Note: I discuss details that suggest Morgan x Artoria in this post. Don't read if you're uncomfortable with the idea.

Artoria considers Kay her brother but she treats none of Morgan's children as her blood relatives. She calls none of her knights nieces or nephews let alone calling Mordred her son. Even as Morgan slapped Tristan with all the evil Gifts, she still calls her sister. In people's eyes, Lancelot is her most favorite knight/person. However when counting her inner thought, it's Morgan who she let get away with everything. Even when Mordred revealed the truth about her heritage, Artoria still acknowledged Morgan as her sister. She grew up with Kay, it's not difficult for her to call him brother. Arguably she wouldn't have known about Morgan until Merlin brought everyone's attention to Artoria. Morgan left when Camelot was built. Assuming they didn't meet in secret, Artoria spent less time with Morgan than with any of Morgan's children. Her wording to Mordred was specific. She could have used Morgan's name only or refers to her as the elder daughter of Uther Pendragon. She opted to call her sister. While Garden of Avalon described her as nothing more than a pebble in Artoria's path she at the same time couldn't injure Artoria's heart. Tristan left the Round table with harsh words to Artoria and that was enough to wound her heart. In Fate/Apocrypha, in the last conversation with her Master Mordred realized Artoria became king for 'the stones on the road side'. This calls back to Morgan being a pebble in Artoria's path, not that Mordred is aware of that comparison. The stones Mordred mentioned are the people of Britain and Artoria has a sense on obligatory duty to them. The pebble that is Morgan is one Artoria shows personal favoritism among all the ones she feel obligated to help and serve. Caster Artoria admitted to playing favoritism and that's not unique to her, all Artorias do that. While she is supposed to treasure all lives, she openly wants to kill Merlin. Either he finally crossed a line or he has messed with someone she plays favoritism toward. If one thinks Artoria is a merciless and inhuman king then everything Morgan did were of no consequenxe to Artoria. Taking into account of the mask she wears in front of everyone, nothing Morgan did made Artoria hates her. She blamed herself for Lancelot and Guinevere's affair, for Tristan's words, for her country's destruction. It's not out of her character to not fault Morgan for anything but that's only because she considers Morgan dear to her. To be fair, Morgan didn't force her into a similar situation with their uncle where either Artoria kills her or gets killed.

She has lines for Merlin, Gareth and Medb. Those lines of course hint at their appearance in LB6. At the same time, it suggests Caster Artoria spending time with Gareth before she went to become a knight. The other children of Morgan don't exist in LB6 or she didn't spend time with them. If the Round Table doesn't exist in LB6, why is she excited to see Gareth became a member? This could implicate that she spent time with Morgan for a good while in LB6.

She still says nothing about Morgan. Her profile mentions she hides her true feelings from everyone. She's quite open when we converse with her so the things she would want to hide would be very private and personal to her.

One detail stands out: the chocolate she claims to like. Would it even possible for chocolate to be there at that time period??? Before talking about chocolate, cacao plants don't grow in Britain. By normal means there's no chololate there. Artoria can't make it herself otherwise she would ask for ingredients rather than for the final product. Merlin can't make it since he doesn't have human sense of taste and she would have mentioned it was him who gave it to her. Semiramis turned her Hanging Garden into a chocolate factory once. She compared it to making poison. Her debut event had us helping her (chocolate self but identical to her in everyway) make chocolate. There were enough to nearly flood Chaldea. She also met MHA and got stumped by her attitude toward chocolate/sweet and poison although this is a minor detail. She is similar enough to Morgan for Mordred to refrain from outright badmouthing her at the end of Apocrypha event. It's highly likely Morgan gave chocolate to Artoria and if it's true, their relationship is good this time around. At the same time, if something happened and they are on the opposing sides again then it's a sad repeat of history.

Aside from Mordred, has anyone or her nieces or nephews actually called her aunt? To them, she's their king. Let's not forget the knights and Gawain - her nephew - tricked her into wearing that bunny outfit. That's another strange thing since as Ruler, not even Moriarty can fool Artoria. If I don't count the developers' intention, Artoria intentionally play the fool in a similar fashion to Nobu. As seen with X and XX however, her real mental process is different to others, taking even the silliest thing to be serious and that doesn't make sense to others not on the same wavelength as hers. Add to those is her willingness to believe those she trusts blindly. That could be viewed as her being fair and trying to listen to others. It's dubious at this point if any of them (except Mordred) views her as family seeing that Gawain doesn't spare her from his perversion. We also haven't gotten Morgan's POV yet.

Fate’s “black magic of the British Isles”

A collection of quotes referring to this mysterious light-eating black magic native to Britain, as well as its known wielders Morgan le Fay, Vortigern, and Artoria Alter. Chances are good that this will be important in Lostbelt 6.

Long post warning!

Keep reading

Do ya ever think that if Uther shows up, and he, the Artorias, and Morgan interact, Chaldea is just gonna have a collective epiphany of "So parental issues have always been a thing in this family, hasn't it?"

I’ll be honest I try very hard not to think about Uther because idk if it’s explained in fsn or whatever but my knowledge of Artoria’s backstory prior to being king is cruelly lacking

Like, is she Uther’s daughter? Is she a farmer’s daughter? Why does she sound like she was raised among commoners, why was Merlin the one to raise her? Why did Merlin present her to the Sword of Selection considering he doesn’t actually see the future? Or is it that he’s not able to anymore? Why is the Caliburn used to designate the next king, didn’t Uther have any other recognized heirs? What’s the fucking deal with Morgan? Did she grow up with Artoria? Do these two even like. Interacted? Why would Morgan want the fall of King Arthur? Is it a personal grudge? Is it a general “fuck you Britain”? Why did Merlin give Artoria a dragon heart?

Like none of them really matter when it comes to Artoria as a character, since from my understanding she’s supposed to represent “shoving who you are as a person under a rug in favor of a vague ideal you don’t really understand” (like Shirou and Rin) so the exact reason why “Artoria the farmer girl” exists and became “Artoria the King” doesn’t really matter, so I’m fine with that usually, but that means thinking about Artoria’s extended family feels a bit like that one time I tried to write a fic about a show but the canon was so inconsistent I had to rewrite the entire worldbuilding when the point was originally just to make a cute soulmate au for my otp.

You know whole Morgan having three different personalities probably worked a bit bitter if it was more like Morgan the witch, Vivian, and Morgan the sister to Artoria were originally one person but something happened to her to split into three people that now lead different lives that played a hand in fate’s arthurian mythos

Sorry, but I seriously don’t agree. If you're just going to split them into three different people, keep them as three separate people in the first place. The issue of 'Morgan being Vivian' wasn't 'Morgan and Vivian can't exist in separate places and live different lives', it's that:

'Morgan being Vivian, combined with the condensed timespan of Fate's Arthurian mythos, opens up more questions than answers due to the established ages of the characters'

I was fine with Morgan having Vivian's authority, because characters borrow the 'authority' of some other character every other moment. But having Morgan actually be Vivian, therefore being Lancelot's adoptive mother, and ALSO being arbitrarily written to be Artoria's FULL sister rather than a partial sibling from an earlier relationship- it just makes things messy for no good reason.

And Morgan COULD have been 'The Lady of the Lake'. That's not a new concept- but it was a concept that worked when Morgan was... you know, allowed to be considerably older than Arthur in order for that to feasibly work. Especially considering all the pre-Arthur stuff that generally happened regarding Merlin, Vortigern, Uther, etc.

The Arthurian mythos, despite the name, didn't just... start with King Arthur. It's a story that requires setup, and Nasu wrote it so that the 'setup' is just a murky pit that requires logical jumps and purely ignoring other things in order to make it work. 

Nasu wants to have his cake and eat it to with every Arthurian character being both 'cool and young' and also having lived the full lives that encapsulated their stories, and it just makes things into a muddy mess once you look past the glamour of 'this sounds cool'. He wants to have the moral ambiguity of Morgan le Fay, but he didn’t give himself a proper setting to do so.

If I were to nitpick at every weird thing Fate does with Arthurian legend, I’d be writing all night, but there is something the Fate series changes that really bugs me, and it has to do with Morgan le Fay.

Fate!Morgan is actually a composite character, derived from two characters from Arthurian legend; Legend!Morgan le Fay, from whom she gains her magical abilities, and Morgause, from whom she largely takes her role in story, as mother of the Orkney siblings (Gawain, Agravain, Gaheris, Gareth, and Mordred) and part of the reason for the fall of Camelot. Fate!Morgan being made up of those two characters doesn’t bug me. I think it’s actually not a bad idea to combine those two characters to make things a bit simpler than having them both around.

That’s not what bugs me.

What does bug me is the way they changed her relationship to Arthur/Artoria.

In Fate, Morgan is a legitimate daughter of Uther Pendragon. My search on the type-moon wiki doesn’t specify who her mother was, but it’s probably safe to assume her mother was Igraine, making her Artoria’s full sister. The reason for her antagonism towards Artoria is that she saw their father as loving her more, and placing his hopes in his younger daughter, even though both Morgan and Artoria were of equal status. This favoritism, whether true of perceived, led Morgan to resent Artoria and want to destroy her.

Now, in most versions of Arthurian legend, Morgan and Morgause are NOT the daughters of Uther. Instead, they are the daughters of Igraine and Gorlois, the Duke of Cornwall (the very south-western most part of Britain). Uther fell in love with Igraine, and went to war with Gorlois to steal her from him. On the very same night that Uther’s forces storm the castle Gorlois is staying in and kill him, Uther has Merlin use magic to disguise him as Gorlois, so he can sneak into the castle Igraine is in and rape her, conceiving Arthur. Igraine later learns the truth about what happened, and is coerced into marrying Uther. Her daughters, Elaine, Morgause, and Morgan, are then married to Uther’s allies.

From my point of view, Morgan and Morgause have a much more compelling reason to hate Arthur in the legend than Morgan does in Fate. The sisters see Arthur as the son of the person who murdered their father, raped their mother, and married them off to secure his own political alliances. Arthur presents himself as the rightful king of Britain and a just ruler, but this is predicated on being the legitimate heir of Uther Pendragon. For Morgan and Morgause, this means that Arthur, Camelot, and every ideal of honor and chivalry they stand for are built upon such an act of cruelty and barbarism that it renders everything a colossal monument to hypocrisy. How could they not want to see it all collapse in on itself?

All in all, I just think trading all of that in for “Dad loved you more than me so I hate you” is just wasted potential.

Why Morgan being Uther's Daughter Annoys Me

So, I mentioned a few times a little about the fact that Morgan being Uther's daughter and how I hate it. Since I got a few people mentioning that they wanted to see my thoughts on it, I'll give a few at least.

So, before we begin, I'm going to give a quick refresher on Morgan's backstory, just so people don't have to read back over things I've written or other stuff.

Morgan is almost always (other than in Welsh sources were she doesn't get mentioned until Arthur is mentioned going to Morgan the Healer) the daughter of Igraine and Gorlois, who Malory calls Duke of Cornwall. She and her sister Morgause (and their sister Elaine who doesn't much show up in the stories) apparently had a good relationship with their father, since he's called a 'good man' pretty consistently. However, Gorlois appears to be a political rival of Uther Pendragon, for the more or less shaky throne.

The problem occurs when Uther invites Gorlois to a feast to work out an alliance, but on seeing his wife, Igraine, he immediately wants her. Igraine seems to notice his interest, and immediately runs to her husband, who immediately takes her at her word and leaves.

Uther declares war. And while he talks about betrayals and such, the real reason is he wants Igraine THAT bad.

However, since Gorlois is himself powerful, and Igraine is actually faithful to her husband, Uther employs Merlin to make him look like Gorlois. Some stories say that he kills Gorlois on the battlefield others say that it was in his own house. Regardless, he is taken for Gorlois and Igraine sleeps with him.

Uther later reveals himself as Uther, breaks the news that he killed Gorlois and that Igrain slept with HIM that night.

He pretty much forcibly marries Igraine, and sends Morgause to be married to his ally Lot and Morgan into a nunnery where she is later married herself (girls used to be educated in nunneries).

This is a motivation. Morgan has absolutely EVERY reason to hate Uther Pendragon, the man who killed her father, raped her mother and tore her happy family apart. She has every reason to struggle with her feelings for Arthur, moving between hating and aiding him, sewing the seeds of his destruction and then coming to save him. She has every reason to despise Guinevere who not only accused one of Morgan's lady's of adultery, but also throws the chance of the happy family Morgan can never reclaim in the dirt. She has every reason to hate Lancelot, who comes in to the same thing she saw Uther do.

What making Morgan as the daughter of Uther does is completely nullify her reasons and motives. It makes her a villain with a nearly incomprehensible motive. She wants to take over Britain but she couldn't do it anyways because she'd have to be a man and she wasn't going to hide that. She hates Artoria for particular reason other than 'she's in my way'. She just seems to be there because the story needed a villain. This utterly erases Morgan's pain and rage, and it seems like all it's there to do is exonerate Uther.

Uther's defining act, and the thing that Arthur is born from, is a horrific deed that should solidify him as a monster. He knew perfectly well Igraine wasn't interested, but he forced her to marry him anyways. By making it having never happened like that, it makes Uther a more heroic figure than anyone whose name is "the Terrible One" should ever be.

While, yes, artistic license is a thing and all that, this particular change is both pointless and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

My favorite part about the Nasuverse is how it needlessly crams down the Arthurian mythos. Technically, there should be about 50 years of stuff, and Arthur should have reigned for between 20-30 years. Which gives time for several iterations of the Round Table, ending with the generation of Galahad.

(putting a cut)

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Listen to me LISTEN to me. Camelot was doomed from the start. It was doomed from the moment Artoria picked up the sword. It was doomed from the moment Uther decided to create the "perfect king." Because if there is such a thing as a perfect ruler it cannot be a human being, and forcing a person into that mold can only have disastrous consequences.

It's not a matter of "one single event kickstarted the fall of Camelot," it's a matter of "Artoria's entire life lead to her acting like this. There is no way she could have made any other choice based on what she has experienced until now. And I say Artoria but this also applies to Mordred, to Lancelot, even to Morgan."

Of course Tristan would part with angry words. He was hurt, and the King was here for him to lash out. Of course Lancelot would reach out to Guinevere; he loved the king, wanted to help the king, grew up valuing the individual over the country, he could not foresee his affections growing. Of course Aggravain would out the affair; his loyalty to the king is absolute, and he found that to be betrayal. Of course Artoria would forgive him, of course Artoria would reject Mordred, she knows no other way to be, knows not how to hold personal grudges or hold people close to her. Of course Mordred would respond to this with violence, they know no other way to be. And before all of that, of course Morgan would plot Camelot's downfall, she's a witch in a world being drained of its mystery she's pissed that she's getting evicted because the world decided it belonged to humans from now on.

They all had other options, yes. But with their life, the one they would pick was a given. Of course, hindsight is 10/10, but can you truly say you would have known better in their place?

If I can throw my hat into the ring regarding Morgan’s FGO design, because I definietely have… thoughts. I don’t hate her design, and I’m interested in her character, but visually she does fall a little flat for me. Slight spoiler warning for LB6. Long rambling post ahead.

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Deadly Premonition | Food Items

BEHOLD. Someone said, probably more than a year ago, that I should try my hand at making a relationship chart for our favorite Arthuriana characters in Fate. I didn't feel like doing it then, but I felt like doing it now, and then while doing it remembered why I didn't feel like doing it then.

This is literally just the 'Saber' part.

This is a (somewhat) simplified version of the Saber part. I tried formatting this so many ways and this was the one that made me want to scream the least.

NOTES:

Explaining why 'Pendragon' is in quotes: 'Pendragon' was more of a title than an actual surname, literally meaning 'Head Dragon' in Welsh, and was mostly an authoritative title used in regards to Uther. Over time, people added the title to Arthur's name as a pseudo-surname as well, before it became treated as an actual surname for the figure. However, this does mean that Mordred most likely wouldn't be 'Mordred Pendragon' unless he acquired the same societal status as Uther and Arthur via becoming king. Still, Fate is one of the many works that treats 'Pendragon' as a true surname rather than a title.

Similarly to 'Pendragon', 'Vortigern' may also be a title that became a name later on, with historians arguing that it may have meant something like 'Supreme Lord'. It wasn't until later interpretations that 'Vortigern' went from a nebulous, violent ruler of the Britons to Arthur's uncle and Uther's brother.

In terms of legends, Morgan is often the step-daughter of Uther after his marriage of Igraine. In Fate, Morgan is Uther's biological daughter and was simply falsely presented as Uther's step-daughter. This is probably a result of fusing Morgan with Uther's daughter Morgause.

Arthur and Morgan have two obscure siblings that will probably never be relevant: Queen Elaine of Garlot, and Madoc.

Gawain, Gareth, Gaheris, and Agravain all had wives. Gareth was married to Lady Lyonesse, Gaheris was married to Lady Lynette (the sister to Lady Lyonesse), Agravain was married to Lady Laurel (Lyonesse and Lynette's niece), and Gawain was… complicated.

See, Gawain had a lot of romances going on. A decent amount of stories had him start single, fall in love, ride off into the sunset… and then come the next tale he'd be single again, rinse and repeat. I'm guessing Ragnell is his canonical spouse since that's the most well-known story and the one with a solid romantic moral in it, but a name has not been dropped and Fate Gawain seems to have no qualms about being 'single again' so honestly we may never know. Which is honestly fitting characterization if you take his 'episodic romances' literally.

I almost forgot Ywain was canonized via Summer Ruler Artoria. He's also here.

Gray and Add are representing Sir Kay because he doesn't have any clear artwork yet.

The world deciding who’s gonna fuck up Camelot this time

If I can throw my hat into the ring regarding Morgan’s FGO design, because I definietely have… thoughts. I don’t hate her design, and I’m interested in her character, but visually she does fall a little flat for me. Slight spoiler warning for LB6. Long rambling post ahead.

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Both thoughts on Morgan please ! :D

Morgan in folklore is a fascinating character. Mostly because no matter what, her first presence as "Morgan the Healer" never seems to go away. She always is, in the end, the one who takes Arthur to Avalon, the reason that maybe he'll be able to come back, while also being one of the key factors that leads to the end of Camelot. no matter how much people try, she's outside of being defined completely. What's more, she's got an incredibly personal and touching motive when you look at it. This isn't just some story about power and how far someone is willing to go to take it, it's about love, and how a horrific act in the past can have echoes that affect the innocent. This isn't to say I like her as a 'hero' but I like her as character.

So, to me Fate!Morgan feels a little like wasted potential. Her motives are a little clearer with new stuff, but honestly pretty much everything I said earlier still stands about why I hate her as Uther's 'true and recognized daughter' even if apparently she's now some fae that spawned into existence too. Her motive of 'you took away my destiny', sort of erases her nuance as a character, and it more just seems like she's a bad person from the start who doesn't accept that she's a bad person. What's more, Nasu tends to use her to project things like the Lady of the Lake's bad behavior on. And, more importantly, it erases Uther's being a creep. Like, I like that we've got a face and more to her, but I guess I feel that if we're going to overcomplicate the reason Artoria became king as having to do with Vortigern and the White Dragon and a plot between Uther and Merlin to save the country, we can have Morgan have a little more complicated motives. In the LB, I'm...pretty sure we're going to get some Midsummer Night's Dream payoff with her though.

Pokémon Team Rascal Line Stickers ♡

You know whole Morgan having three different personalities probably worked a bit bitter if it was more like Morgan the witch, Vivian, and Morgan the sister to Artoria were originally one person but something happened to her to split into three people that now lead different lives that played a hand in fate’s arthurian mythos

Sorry, but I seriously don’t agree. If you're just going to split them into three different people, keep them as three separate people in the first place. The issue of 'Morgan being Vivian' wasn't 'Morgan and Vivian can't exist in separate places and live different lives', it's that:

'Morgan being Vivian, combined with the condensed timespan of Fate's Arthurian mythos, opens up more questions than answers due to the established ages of the characters'

I was fine with Morgan having Vivian's authority, because characters borrow the 'authority' of some other character every other moment. But having Morgan actually be Vivian, therefore being Lancelot's adoptive mother, and ALSO being arbitrarily written to be Artoria's FULL sister rather than a partial sibling from an earlier relationship- it just makes things messy for no good reason.

And Morgan COULD have been 'The Lady of the Lake'. That's not a new concept- but it was a concept that worked when Morgan was... you know, allowed to be considerably older than Arthur in order for that to feasibly work. Especially considering all the pre-Arthur stuff that generally happened regarding Merlin, Vortigern, Uther, etc.

The Arthurian mythos, despite the name, didn't just... start with King Arthur. It's a story that requires setup, and Nasu wrote it so that the 'setup' is just a murky pit that requires logical jumps and purely ignoring other things in order to make it work. 

Nasu wants to have his cake and eat it to with every Arthurian character being both 'cool and young' and also having lived the full lives that encapsulated their stories, and it just makes things into a muddy mess once you look past the glamour of 'this sounds cool'. He wants to have the moral ambiguity of Morgan le Fay, but he didn’t give himself a proper setting to do so.

What do you think about PHH Morgan?

Now, remember, I don't even like or really even pity LostBelt Morgan.

PHH just annoys me. Her motive has been completely cheapened from being a direct result of Uther's actions to 'it was her purpose as a fae to be king'. Because I guess we can't have Uther doing anything bad that might reflect poorly on Artoria.

We also now have her having split personalities because Nasu either was feeling lazy or REALLY wanted to hint at that triad goddess that everyone keeps pretending existed and never did outside the Fates.

And also making everything with Lancelot really REALLY weird. Since he was raised by the Lady of the Lake. Who is now Morgan. Who stole him as a child from his parents while they were fleeing their kingdom. Who also apparently raised him to fight for Artoria. Who he is implied to have feelings for and showed up earlier than usual.

Nasu's Camelot lore is a mess.

Then we have Mordred, and how Mordred was conceived and created. And the fact that we know that she was abusive to Mordred. To the point that Mordred goes nuts on Semiramis just because she reminds Mordred of Morgan. And yeah, I'm putting the blame of Artoria's rejection completely on Morgan. While Artoria gets a hard time for how she responded to Mordred, at some level, I'm not particularly shocked that she sort of shut down. That's about the only way she knows how to deal with trauma, and Nasu decided to have Morgan do what Uther originally did (taking the form of a loved one to sleep with you) and Artoria is understandably not responding well.

But yeah, my issues with Morgan are also a part of a wider issue with how Nasu is doing Camelot. I'm fully aware of WHY I think he's doing it this way, but it still annoys me.

So reddit got more PHH Morgan lore. First of all, she's actually Artoria's full blooded sister. When she was born, Gaia made her "the Child of Britain" who would inherit the island's mystery. The result was that she got three different split personalities like Kay mentioned: Morgan the human(Warrior), the fairy(Fairy), and the personification of Britain(Witch). Note: her Fairy self is named VIVIAN yes, LADY OF THE LAKE Vivian. According to Lancelot, Nimue, his mom, was an alias for Vivian so...

-Me: "So Nasu, which is it? Is Morgan Igraine's kid or Uther's kid?' Nasu: "... Yes."

-So basically Morgan's three bitches in PHH. I would have thought it was a gradual process from one to another but of course Nasu takes the fucking craziest and most metaphysical route possible just to clock me in the face.

-Well that explains the whole 'Evil Vivian' thing.

... Also-

Arturia: *at Gawain* You're Morgan's kid.

Arturia: *at Agravain* You're Morgan's kid. (Wish I wasn't)

Arturia: *at Gareth* You're Morgan's kid!

Arturia: *at Gaheris* You're Morgan's kid! (How'd I get here?!)

Arturia: *at Mordred* You're Morgan's AND my kid. (...Can you say that again?)

Arturia: IS THERE ANY MORE CHILDREN OF MORGAN IN MY COURT?!

Lancelot: ... Well...not biologically...but...

Arturia: ....

The Orkney Siblings: ...

Mordred: ... I'm not extending my family tree any further.

Also also-

Lancelot: My own mother tried to rape me...

Mordred: At least she gave a shit about you.

My favorite part about the Nasuverse is how it needlessly crams down the Arthurian mythos. Technically, there should be about 50 years of stuff, and Arthur should have reigned for between 20-30 years. Which gives time for several iterations of the Round Table, ending with the generation of Galahad.

(putting a cut)

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Morgan le Fey’s Condensed Timeline

I drove myself up the wall working this out this morning, but this is how I assume Morgan could have possibly raised 6 children while Altria only lived to age 35. Please let me know if you see anything wrong, I’m doing my best!

@drunk-on-starlight​

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Hige wo Soru. Soshite Joshikousei wo Hirou. (Higehiro: After Being Rejected, I Shaved and Took in a High School Runaway) - Sayu Ogiwara Dakimakura Covers (School Uniform ver. and Maid Swimsuit ver.) by Miyuki. Release: February 2024