I'm Neurotypical I Just Do All This Stuff Cause I Want To

you're t4t? cool, i'm actually t5t, so. one more than you. no big deal though

Being a stem person who's best friends with an art person is great because you'll tell them "oh I have to mix these chemicals and analyze data for tomorrow" and they'll think it's the worst thing ever. Meanwhile they have to draw 8 portraits and master frottage and collage by tomorrow and you think that's the worst thing ever

Distressed Rat by @the-scungles-of-crungles

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Could you give me any Batman comic(/series) recommendations? Or Joker ones?

(You can pretend I’ve never read any Batman comics)

Man, this got me thinking about (1) the number of extended storylines I still haven't fully read myself and (2) of the ones I have, would I recommend that people read them?? Tough question! Thinking about it in terms of a Batman newbie changes things too... 🤔

Ultimately, my list is mostly one-offs apart from the mainline series, but there's a few multi-issue mainline stories in there. From oldest to newest:

Batman (1940) #1, "The Joker" and "The Joker Returns" — Early comics can feel inaccessible because of their age, but I would still recommend checking out the start of Batman and Joker's relationship for a sense of the longevity and evolution of these characters (You could also read Batman's first appearance in Detective Comics [1937] #27.)

Batman (1940) #251, "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge" — Jumping ahead thirty years! After a 4-year absence from comics, Joker returns, and I just love how his dynamic with Batman picks up where they left off like it was yesterday.

Detective Comics (1937) #475, "The Laughing Fish" — The infamous story in which Joker's mad scheme is to… copyright fish.

The Dark Knight Returns #1-4 — TBH, I'm not a fan of TDKR for various reasons. However, it had a huge influence on Batman and you should read it at least once.

Batman (1940) #404-407, "Batman: Year One" — More required reading (but I do enjoy it more than TDKR). Frank Miller's problematique is more acknowledged today, but as I said, modern Batman stems from his work.

The Killing Joke — Controversial-ish recommendation nowadays, considering the much-maligned choice to fridge Barbara Gordon, but I still enjoy the nuance it gives Joker and the meta element of the ending, with Bruce and Joker trapped in their cycle by choices that are informed by the needs of the franchise. Alan Moore may no longer care for it, but I do! (Also, I'd say read it with the original coloring.)

Batman (1940) #426-429, "A Death in the Family" — Another big event in Batman lore: the death of Jason Todd. It's one of those moments that gets flattened in various ways today, so I think it's important to see how everything actually played out. In particular, it's striking to see that Joker is initially nervous about Batman finding out what he did, and just how Bruce struggles with his no-kill principle.

Batman #450-451, "Wildcard!" and "Judgements!" — Joker's big return after Jason's murder, in which we see he's still not all that giddy about it.

Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #65-68, "Going Sane" — This story takes place earlier in Batman's career, before Robin. When Joker seemingly kills Batman, he tries to start a new life without his instability breaking through. Meanwhile, Bruce recovers from his near-death in a little town in the middle of nowhere and thinks he might actually stay there… but he's plagued by restlessness too.

Joker: Devil's Advocate — Joker winds up on death row, but for a crime he didn't commit! Bruce is set on proving Joker's innocence despite the clown's other sins, and Joker is too captivated by all the media attention to help save his own hide.

Deathstroke (1991) #58, "Bad Blood" — A story in which Joker causes plenty of chaos, but in service of doing something… nice?

Batman: Ego — As Bruce contemplates giving up his crusade, he falls into an argument with… Batman.

Batman (1940) #648-650, "All They Do Is Watch Us Kill" — Part of Under the Red Hood. Jason Todd's reappearance in Gotham City comes to a head when he kidnaps Joker and draws Batman in for a dire confrontation.

Detective Comics (1937) #826, "Slayride" — Paul Dini is one of the writers who consistently remembers Joker has a personality and makes him funny, and this Christmas-time story featuring Tim Drake is a great example.

Batman Confidential #7-12, "Lovers and Madmen" — An alternative origin for Joker. Bruce has been fighting crime for about a year when he encounters a bloody crime scene that he can't make sense of. Meanwhile, the culprit, Jack, is growing bored with his criminal life, until he comes face to face with a vigilante bat.

Batman 80-Page Giant 2010 (Volume 2), "Reality Check" — Is Joker really crazy? Does Joker himself even know?

Batman (2011) #13-17, "Death of the Family" — Not to be confused with "A Death in the Family." Joker tries to convince Batman that all his sidekicks make him weak.

Batman (2011) #23.1, "Time to Monkey Shine" — Joker infamously adopts a gorilla. (It ends badly.)

Batman (2011) #35-40, "Endgame" — After Joker's failure in DOTF, he decides to bring his conflict with Batman to a close.

The Joker Presents: A Puzzlebox #1-7 — The Riddler is dead, but what really happened? A heist story in which the point of view is passed around multiple rogues, but Joker is the ringleader.

Catwoman: Lonely City #1-4 — Alright, this one does revolve around Selina, but the story is deeply tied to her relationship with Bruce and what she comes to understand about him in the end. (And Joker plays a brief but key part!)

Batman & The Joker: The Deadly Duo #1-7 — A recent team-up that calls back to everything I've personally enjoyed about Batman and Joker's dynamic.

Batman: City of Madness #1-3 — Beneath Gotham lies Gotham Below, from which a monstrous mirror of Batman escapes in search of a Robin. In his pursuit, Bruce confronts not only alternative versions of his rogues but his personal demons.

ughhhhhhh i love you falsettos i love you in trousers i love you hedwig and the angry inch i love you my own private idaho i love you i love you everything sucks i love you the new normal i love you i love you the prom i love you adamandi i love you fun home i love you angels in america i love you queer media and the emotions you make me feel

I absolutely love the ending of The Talented Mr Ripley.

I love that Tom was able to trust Peter enough to tell him about his past and I love that Peter basically said "Y'know what, I love you no matter what. You are smart, sexy, talented and Dickie and Freddie were kind of assholes, so they should've seen it coming." And the next day they watch the sunset on the boat together. And when Meredith shows up, Tom is all like "Hey, look who I found on the boat?" and Peter played along "Such a coincidence we were on this boat together, and yet Dickie and I have decided are getting married next month" and Meredith was all like "I can't blame either of you. Can I be maid of honour?" and she was and they lived happily ever after.

Truly a classic.

Watched '89 Batman just so I could read the original script and get mad at the changes. Spoilers, but also this won't make a lot of sense if you haven't already seen the movie

Starting off strong with the descriptions. I'm sure cranking up Jack's age some 20 years wouldn't make much of a difference to the plot...

I was going to say that the casting director is no Andrea Romano, but considering his name drops before Keaton's, I'm sure Nicholson was chosen through a more particular process. I wonder though, was that choice alone responsible for the "Joker kills Bruce's parents" idea? (side note, did Joker 2019 come up with *anything* new at all??) Or was it something that came up after they decided to erase Dick Grayson from the film to replace the original conflict?

Oh yeah, the Flying Grayson's episode happens in the original script. But let's look at Ace Chemicals first — which is not the name they used in the movie, just to piss me off

They cut out a whole section of the gang breaking into the plant. It's not a bad choice, I just liked the date makeup observation. Now to the meet cute--

Paralyzing talons? Are you kidding me, they got rid of that?? Oh, silly me, of course they did — that would get in the way of Batman's classic blowing-up-thugs rule.

Bruce didn't throw Jack off the platform here, but interestingly enough we still see him feeling guilty when he finds out that he inadvertently created Joker

And yes, this is almost the exact same moment that Tom King wrote in Batman/Catwoman. Gotta love the trope of Bruce bringing up his guilt over creating his arch-nemesis in the middle of an intimate moment with a beautiful woman on his bed. Now some random things they changed that stood out to me:

Every single time Joker acts blatantly childishly or is described as being on the verge of a tantrum is so funny. Sad that we could've had this instead of him thirsting over Vicky Vale.

This is the during the attack of the mimes on the city hall. I assume they decided to cut it out because that sort of ptsd goes a little against installing machine guns on the batmobile and striking down your enemies with military grade missiles.

They didn't pull a Joe Chill/Joker switcheroo here, Vale's guilt just dreamed of this scenario. The script goes a little deeper in expanding her relationship with Bruce. She figured out he's Batman on her own — saving up Alfred's skin — but unfortunately so does her colleague. As a self-designated nice guy, Knox tries to get Batman to break things off with Vicky. He's also waiting for the news of Joker's attacks to quiet down before exposing Batman's identity, but don't worry, the scripts solves this beautifully later on.

Anyways, instead of the confrontation at the apartment of Vicky Vale (also known as Bruce's "let's get nuts" moment and the devil in the moonlight quote) we have a chase scene that leads to Dick's introduction. Before that though comes probably the second scene I most wish they had kept in the movie

Yes, Batman chases Joker on a horse, first wearing a tuxedo, then his whole gear. Do you see what they took from us? What could've been?

Joker kills the Graysons with pretty explosions, Dick jumps onto Joker's van and tries to kill him but alas is detained by Batman and batnapped.

Batman then asks Alfred to take care of Dick and the last act is set in motion. Pushed by anger and guilt, Batman blows up Ace Chemicals (tho here we're supposed to believe the thugs managed to run out before the place crumbled) but Joker escapes and goes to set the balloon parade in motion.

Before he can blow away the public, Knox and Vicky create the bat signal to alert Batman about the balloons and Joker's plans are thwarted. Unfortunately (cough) this costs Knox his life. But hey, at least Batman's identity is safe.

Big explosions ensue, the batwing goes down and Bruce is almost left dead in the debris. Dick Grayson, now dawning his makeshift Robin suit, saves him and runs to enact his revenge on Joker.

They enter the cathedral, Joker and Dick exchange some bullets and Batman eventually catches up with Dick, knocking him out again. Then Batman manages to crawl up the stairs through inhuman effort against his fatal injuries, passes out just before reaching the final floor and uh... I'll just post this next part in full

He's made a friend... Attempted murder-suicide... Joker's taken out by a horde of Bats... This would probably have replaced Fight Club in my list of favorite movie endings if it ever came into existence.

Before I close up on our villain and hero's demises, I do have something to point out that I think was improved in the final script. Joker's Smylex — basically Joker Gas, originally meant to be called Smylenol — got added to beauty products and caused some people to die in the movie. I say some, because while we see 13 deaths reported there, here it's something that comes closer to the class of hundreds. He doesn't even invent it, originally; he just steals the formula from an old CIA project. Because the fatal product doesn't happen only when certain products are mixed together, a whole lot more end up becoming victims and Batman can't do much about it except cut out the source. It's just a detail, but I liked that they thought of an alternative. I may not like the Joker mob boss origin, but at least they let him keep his chemical prowess.

Now to the ending. Batman had a last minute bout of clarity and threw the bomb away, tangling it in the helicopter's ladder

Something something Batman offering Joker a last comfort before death... Endgame and Arkham City and...

Okay, that's pretty much what I've got. Am I mad we didn't get to have this? Kinda. But also, I didn't have big expectations for what actually came out, and it's still a pretty funny film. Besides, I think when it comes to Batman and mainly Joker, sticking to the comics, games and animations is the best way to go. Best to keep the incels focused on the live adaptations anyhow

I'm re-reading Batman: The World for uh... Batman Day related reasons and I'm losing it because:

Batman: The World -- Global City

Meanwhile, Bruce describing Gotham in a different comic:

Batman: City of Crime

First of all, Bruce's description of Gotham as a laughing madwoman he needs to tame with his fists is eerily reminiscent of the way he talks about a certain someone -- ahem -- but secondly, Azzarello writing Bruce comparing the city to his wife... you know, the same writer who made Martha Wayne the Joker in Flashpoint, and literally Batman's wife.

Me right now:

Do you have any favorite moments of bruce being unhinged and obssessed with joker?

An excellent question! Thank you, anon, and sorry it took so long for me to answer this.

Most of Bruce’s existence is insane moments, so it’s hard to pick and choose, but you can bet I’ve got Joker-related ones that make me want to twist myself into a pretzel. Bruce is especially unhinged about Joker... ranging from feeling responsibility over him and guilt over his creation, to unrelenting obsession about either catching him when he doesn’t know where he is or finding a way to understand him, to mind-boggling possessive behavior that he gets called out on by multiple people. Oh yes, then there’s him saving Joker’s life no matter the cost, so many times it’s gotten tough to keep track of them.

But I will leave you with my top 10 favorite moments where Bruce’s unhinged-about-Joker disease particularly shines through:

1). That time Bruce went to Joker in Arkham like three years into their rivalry to basically say “Hi, I’m Batman and Bruce Wayne is my secret identity, here’s your card back!”;

2). That time Bruce offered to work with and rehabilitate Joker, basically two seconds after Joker shot Barbara Gordon in the spine and tried to drive her father insane;

3). That time Bruce, the notorious magic hater, consults a psychic about Joker’s location; or, the comic from which the batshit “I want him so bad, my body would shake if I let it” quote comes from;

4). That time Bruce raced against the clock to save Joker from getting fried in the electric chair, actually uttering the words “Every breath you take you owe to me” at the end (cue Every Breath You Take by The Police);

5). That time Bruce slit the throat of his adopted son who came back from the dead like five minutes ago, to save the life of Joker, the guy who murdered his adopted son in the first place;

6). That time Bruce disguised himself as Matches Malone to have a conversation with Joker while he was stuffed full of drugs and rational, in what’s essentially the third time Bruce goes “Why do you hate me?? How about we don’t kill each other” only for Joker to go “Nah. I hate your guts”, breaking his blackened bat-shaped heart;

7). That time Bruce got so obsessed with understanding how Joker’s mind worked, he made himself hallucinate and fucked himself up so badly Tim and even Joker call him out on it;

8). That time Bruce kept both him and Joker from healing their fatal wounds and called Joker his friend, essentially committing murder-suicide;

9). That time Bruce got so used to receiving ‘gifts’ from Joker every month that the one time he didn’t get any, he got so incredibly panicked he initiated a city-wide evacuation, devolving into screaming “GIVE ME MY BIRTHDAY PRESENT” into Joker’s face (and it’s the best thing ever);

10). The alternate timeline in which Clark kills Joker and Bruce gets unbelievably unhinged about it, otherwise known as Injustice: Gods Among Us.

I’ll be going through all of these with a bit of commentary and gratuitous comic panels under the cut. I got long about it as always, so I figured I’d give you the option to just read through the list and peruse my ramblings after, if your heart desires.

So. These aren’t in order of how much I favor them, but rather a crude chronological order, because I find the progression... interesting.

1). That time Bruce goes “Hi, I’m Batman and Bruce Wayne is my secret identity, here’s your card back!” even though he’s known Joker for a grand total of three years at best, as recalled via flashback in Batman: Death of the Family:

God, Bruce telling Alfred all of this is just so... painfully selfish, somehow. Alfred, and the whole Family, have gone through hell because of Joker. And here Bruce is admitting that Joker was right; that Bruce did essentially invite him in his life, inside the house, to lay waste to all he had. And the way he bemoans at the end, so desperately and caught up in his own feelings, that he can’t make Joker understand that the reason he let him in wasn’t to have him destroy Bruce Wayne’s humanity, but rather to reach out, to get Joker to stop... is so [garbled inhuman noises]. Here Bruce is, insisting that no, he wouldn’t ever let it end like that, just him and Joker (when he makes it end like that! in Batman: Endgame! except he ensures everyone else lives) -- making Alfred reassure him, instead of the other way around.

Also, I find the little detail that this is after Bruce took Dick in relevant here, because... he’s not putting just himself in danger. He’s putting himself, Alfred and a child in danger by exposing his identity, and it all comes back to bite him in the ass, years down the line. Because Joker ignored, but he didn’t forget. The risk Bruce took was calculated, but man, was he bad at math.

2). That time Bruce offered to work with and rehabilitate Joker, basically 2 seconds after Joker shot Barbara Gordon in the spine and tried to drive her father insane, in the iconic Batman: The Killing Joke:

...This barely needs any comment, it’s been analyzed to death. But it’s still such an outlandish thing to do, and a Bruce moment I find fascinating after all this time, so here we are.

3). That time Bruce is so obsessed with finding Joker he consults a psychic about him, or Detective Comics (1940) #617:

So you've probably seen this one panel floating around, and for good reason, because... wow.

But the thing is, the whole issue is like this. Bruce is so damn obsessed with finding Joker he actually talks to a pyschic. Who then proceeds to ask him to pick a card and looks into a crystal ball to get Joker's location. Like. That's how desperate my man gets. But then she doesn't see anything, only a snake eating its own tail (an ouroboros) -- because that's what Batman and Joker are. Symbols of chaos and justice respectively, eternally chasing each other. And to complete the symmetry and the theme of an ouroboros, the issue's ending parallels its beginning:

Crouching on rooftops gloomingly pondering the deep philosophical bond you share with your nemesis, dedicating yourself to chasing him forever. You know. Normal behavior.

4). That time Bruce fought to save Joker’s life when he got put on death row for a crime he didn’t commit, despite all the reasons he could’ve let Joker die for the myriad of crimes he did commit, proceeding to claim Joker’s life as his at the end, in The Joker: Devil’s Advocate:

If you’re curious for expanded commentary on this, I’ve spoken about this comic before in more detail here.

And because I can’t help myself, here’s some bonus little moments of Bruce being possessive over Joker!

Legends of the DC Universe #27:

Impulse (1995) #50:

5). That time Bruce slit the throat of his adopted son who came back from the dead like 5 minutes ago, to save the life of Joker, the guy who murdered his adopted son in the first place, in Batman: Under the Red Hood:

I’ve elaborated a bit more on why this is unhinged behavior in this other post (same as the one linked above). But... well. These panels really speak for themselves. And I wouldn’t say this is a favorite insane Bruce moment of mine, it’s more of an eternally baffling one, simply because of how huge it is.

6). That time Bruce disguised himself as Matches Malone to have a conversation with Joker while he was stuffed full of drugs and rational, in what’s essentially the third time Bruce goes “Do you actually hate me? How about we don’t kill each other. Please, for the love of God” only for Joker to go “Nah. I hate your guts” and break his heart, in Batman: Cacophony #3:

(There are simply no words to describe how much I hate Joker’s beard. Kill it. Kill it with fire. My deepest apologies that I am exposing you to this.)

Joker doesn’t answer, he turns the question on him. And Bruce basically says that no, he doesn’t want Joker dead, because he never wants to see death ever again, period. But then Joker says:

...Poor Bruce. Yeah. As Joker remarks after, this did hurt Bruce’s feelings. And later, this is how Bruce and Alfred discuss it:

“From what he told me tonight, that would’ve given him peace.”

This happens a bunch of times... Joker says that dying would be the best option, the best thing (because as I said elsewhere, Batman is paradoxically both Joker’s preferred method of suicide and his way of keeping himself alive) -- but Bruce refuses to allow for Joker’s death, even passively, again and again. Despite everything.

7). Bruce being so obsessed with understanding Joker he fucks himself up by undertaking a very dangerous meditation process called Thogal, as shown in Batman (1940) #673:

(Haha. Yes he does think way too much about the Joker.)

And I love how Joker himself, seeing what state Bruce has been reduced to by the Black Glove organization, calls him out on how much of a dumb move it was to do this, in Batman: R.I.P:

“Like there was some rabbit hole you could follow me down to understanding?” This is one of my favorite quotes from Joker, probably. Bruce’s obsession with figuring out how Joker works keeps popping up in comics, but this has to be the craziest thing he’s done because of it.

8). That time Bruce called Joker his friend and proceeded to keep both of them from healing their wounds or saving their own lives, essentially committing murder-suicide, in Batman: Endgame:

Haha. This is fine. Bruce spewing all that bullshit about believing Joker is the Pale Man so he’d have the flimsiest of excuses to keep Joker with him and say ‘I’m sorry’ before they die... it’s fine.

9). That time Bruce got so used to receiving ‘gifts’ from Joker every month that the one time he didn’t get any, he got so incredibly panicked he initiated a city-wide evacuation, devolving into screaming “GIVE ME MY BIRTHDAY PRESENT” into Joker’s face and it’s the best thing ever... in Detective Comics #1027:

I love this little story. Bruce’s internal narration is so good, the whole time, and the way his obsession mounts, culminating in this one insane moment... chef’s kiss. And his broken reaction, the way he’s shown desperate and alone at the end... This one time Joker got his birthday right being the time he offered himself as the gift, and the time he made Bruce ask for it... it’s beautifully tragic.

10). That time Superman killed Joker and Batman went against him, despite Superman being his best friend and technically right (for a bit in the beginning) -- or, everything about Injustice: Gods Among Us.

Alright so. This will get long, but hear me out. The funniest (and the most tragic) part about Bruce in Injustice... is that his behavior only makes sense if he was in love with Joker.

Bruce after Joker commits genocide, killing millions of people and forcing Clark (his best friend) to murder his own wife and unborn child:

“This has always been about us.” He says this after Joker killed eleven million people. It’s so incredibly selfish and self-centred it’s mind-boggling.

And then, Bruce when Joker gets killed:

Already unhinged behavior, yes? I’m including all of this because in these comics, we get the most direct call-out Bruce has ever gotten regarding his feelings for Joker. But I think that placed within context, everything is just so much worse.

Even the dialogue draws attention to the fact that Bruce without the mask, and Bruce putting on the mask, matters in this scene. He only denies Clark’s words after he hides behind the Bat. And later, when he rejects Clark’s offer to join him, he does it as Bruce -- not Batman.

Ultimately, the thing is-- Superman has killed before. And for much less. Hell, canonically, Clark has killed Doomsday, Darkseid, Braniac, Zod, Bizarro... and yes, they more often than not come back to life, but he’s made that decision. Diana killed Maxwell Lord, Jason and Damian (two of Bruce’s own) have killed people before, and Bruce himself shot Darkseid that one time! He made the decision to fire a gun and potentially kill someone for the sake of the Universe! Him saying that he’s disapproving of Clark’s actions because of Clark killing a man is so hypocritical considering the circumstances, and that’s the thing. The text is literally telling us that. Clark is calling out the truth about Bruce’s behavior and putting it out in the open from the start.

“You’re angry at me for taking the Joker away from you.”

That’s it. That’s the main reason the war between Superman and Batman actually happens. The ideological differences and the enforcing of justice and freedom of choice are the collateral; it’s all deeply personal, between them. In the beginning, in Year 1, it’s honestly pretty hard to argue that Clark is even wrong in what he’s doing! He gives a speech against nuclear weapons and makes an effort to stop wars and Bruce interprets it in such a negative light. Obviously, Clark does end up making some very wrong choices, and becoming an actual dictator -- but the tragedy of it all, I feel, is that if Bruce had tried to genuinely help in the beginning, instead of assuming the worst and antagonizing Clark so much... Clark might’ve been saved.

Instead, what we get is Clark turning into Batman’s worst enemy. As if killing Joker passed on a curse; a foe Batman cannot kill and cannot defeat must exist, so Clark took Joker’s place when he killed him. God, I was obsessed with Superbat in this comic for such a long time, too. But to not make this longer than it has to be, I’ll stop here and say... Injustice is a tragedy with admittedly many writing flaws, but in the wise words of Daniel Craig in Knives Out: 

(Hah. Not to mention that Bruce ends up working with Harley in this timeline, the one who helped Joker commit genocide. But sure, allying with Clark is unthinkable.)

And so we have reached the end! This got long as fuck, but well, at this point, I’m sure no one is surprised. I do hope you enjoyed the list, anon!