Oddly-something - Alex

everytime a fanartist makes Joker a tumblr sexyman twink and not a) disgusting shrivelled up husk of a man or b) evil disney-villain-esque campy guy an angel somewhere dies.

[ID: A painting of a photo from the Kiss of the Spider Woman (musical), of Brent Carver as Molina. He sits on his bed with one hand to his cheek and his knees up. The background is black with a blue halo around his head, and a spiderweb spiralling out from there. On the right is an extension of the background, with a prison bar pattern. End ID.]

Speaking of which!

Do you have any favorite moments of bruce being unhinged and obssessed with joker?

An excellent question! Thank you, anon, and sorry it took so long for me to answer this.

Most of Bruce’s existence is insane moments, so it’s hard to pick and choose, but you can bet I’ve got Joker-related ones that make me want to twist myself into a pretzel. Bruce is especially unhinged about Joker... ranging from feeling responsibility over him and guilt over his creation, to unrelenting obsession about either catching him when he doesn’t know where he is or finding a way to understand him, to mind-boggling possessive behavior that he gets called out on by multiple people. Oh yes, then there’s him saving Joker’s life no matter the cost, so many times it’s gotten tough to keep track of them.

But I will leave you with my top 10 favorite moments where Bruce’s unhinged-about-Joker disease particularly shines through:

1). That time Bruce went to Joker in Arkham like three years into their rivalry to basically say “Hi, I’m Batman and Bruce Wayne is my secret identity, here’s your card back!”;

2). That time Bruce offered to work with and rehabilitate Joker, basically two seconds after Joker shot Barbara Gordon in the spine and tried to drive her father insane;

3). That time Bruce, the notorious magic hater, consults a psychic about Joker’s location; or, the comic from which the batshit “I want him so bad, my body would shake if I let it” quote comes from;

4). That time Bruce raced against the clock to save Joker from getting fried in the electric chair, actually uttering the words “Every breath you take you owe to me” at the end (cue Every Breath You Take by The Police);

5). That time Bruce slit the throat of his adopted son who came back from the dead like five minutes ago, to save the life of Joker, the guy who murdered his adopted son in the first place;

6). That time Bruce disguised himself as Matches Malone to have a conversation with Joker while he was stuffed full of drugs and rational, in what’s essentially the third time Bruce goes “Why do you hate me?? How about we don’t kill each other” only for Joker to go “Nah. I hate your guts”, breaking his blackened bat-shaped heart;

7). That time Bruce got so obsessed with understanding how Joker’s mind worked, he made himself hallucinate and fucked himself up so badly Tim and even Joker call him out on it;

8). That time Bruce kept both him and Joker from healing their fatal wounds and called Joker his friend, essentially committing murder-suicide;

9). That time Bruce got so used to receiving ‘gifts’ from Joker every month that the one time he didn’t get any, he got so incredibly panicked he initiated a city-wide evacuation, devolving into screaming “GIVE ME MY BIRTHDAY PRESENT” into Joker’s face (and it’s the best thing ever);

10). The alternate timeline in which Clark kills Joker and Bruce gets unbelievably unhinged about it, otherwise known as Injustice: Gods Among Us.

I’ll be going through all of these with a bit of commentary and gratuitous comic panels under the cut. I got long about it as always, so I figured I’d give you the option to just read through the list and peruse my ramblings after, if your heart desires.

So. These aren’t in order of how much I favor them, but rather a crude chronological order, because I find the progression... interesting.

1). That time Bruce goes “Hi, I’m Batman and Bruce Wayne is my secret identity, here’s your card back!” even though he’s known Joker for a grand total of three years at best, as recalled via flashback in Batman: Death of the Family:

God, Bruce telling Alfred all of this is just so... painfully selfish, somehow. Alfred, and the whole Family, have gone through hell because of Joker. And here Bruce is admitting that Joker was right; that Bruce did essentially invite him in his life, inside the house, to lay waste to all he had. And the way he bemoans at the end, so desperately and caught up in his own feelings, that he can’t make Joker understand that the reason he let him in wasn’t to have him destroy Bruce Wayne’s humanity, but rather to reach out, to get Joker to stop... is so [garbled inhuman noises]. Here Bruce is, insisting that no, he wouldn’t ever let it end like that, just him and Joker (when he makes it end like that! in Batman: Endgame! except he ensures everyone else lives) -- making Alfred reassure him, instead of the other way around.

Also, I find the little detail that this is after Bruce took Dick in relevant here, because... he’s not putting just himself in danger. He’s putting himself, Alfred and a child in danger by exposing his identity, and it all comes back to bite him in the ass, years down the line. Because Joker ignored, but he didn’t forget. The risk Bruce took was calculated, but man, was he bad at math.

2). That time Bruce offered to work with and rehabilitate Joker, basically 2 seconds after Joker shot Barbara Gordon in the spine and tried to drive her father insane, in the iconic Batman: The Killing Joke:

...This barely needs any comment, it’s been analyzed to death. But it’s still such an outlandish thing to do, and a Bruce moment I find fascinating after all this time, so here we are.

3). That time Bruce is so obsessed with finding Joker he consults a psychic about him, or Detective Comics (1940) #617:

So you've probably seen this one panel floating around, and for good reason, because... wow.

But the thing is, the whole issue is like this. Bruce is so damn obsessed with finding Joker he actually talks to a pyschic. Who then proceeds to ask him to pick a card and looks into a crystal ball to get Joker's location. Like. That's how desperate my man gets. But then she doesn't see anything, only a snake eating its own tail (an ouroboros) -- because that's what Batman and Joker are. Symbols of chaos and justice respectively, eternally chasing each other. And to complete the symmetry and the theme of an ouroboros, the issue's ending parallels its beginning:

Crouching on rooftops gloomingly pondering the deep philosophical bond you share with your nemesis, dedicating yourself to chasing him forever. You know. Normal behavior.

4). That time Bruce fought to save Joker’s life when he got put on death row for a crime he didn’t commit, despite all the reasons he could’ve let Joker die for the myriad of crimes he did commit, proceeding to claim Joker’s life as his at the end, in The Joker: Devil’s Advocate:

If you’re curious for expanded commentary on this, I’ve spoken about this comic before in more detail here.

And because I can’t help myself, here’s some bonus little moments of Bruce being possessive over Joker!

Legends of the DC Universe #27:

Impulse (1995) #50:

5). That time Bruce slit the throat of his adopted son who came back from the dead like 5 minutes ago, to save the life of Joker, the guy who murdered his adopted son in the first place, in Batman: Under the Red Hood:

I’ve elaborated a bit more on why this is unhinged behavior in this other post (same as the one linked above). But... well. These panels really speak for themselves. And I wouldn’t say this is a favorite insane Bruce moment of mine, it’s more of an eternally baffling one, simply because of how huge it is.

6). That time Bruce disguised himself as Matches Malone to have a conversation with Joker while he was stuffed full of drugs and rational, in what’s essentially the third time Bruce goes “Do you actually hate me? How about we don’t kill each other. Please, for the love of God” only for Joker to go “Nah. I hate your guts” and break his heart, in Batman: Cacophony #3:

(There are simply no words to describe how much I hate Joker’s beard. Kill it. Kill it with fire. My deepest apologies that I am exposing you to this.)

Joker doesn’t answer, he turns the question on him. And Bruce basically says that no, he doesn’t want Joker dead, because he never wants to see death ever again, period. But then Joker says:

...Poor Bruce. Yeah. As Joker remarks after, this did hurt Bruce’s feelings. And later, this is how Bruce and Alfred discuss it:

“From what he told me tonight, that would’ve given him peace.”

This happens a bunch of times... Joker says that dying would be the best option, the best thing (because as I said elsewhere, Batman is paradoxically both Joker’s preferred method of suicide and his way of keeping himself alive) -- but Bruce refuses to allow for Joker’s death, even passively, again and again. Despite everything.

7). Bruce being so obsessed with understanding Joker he fucks himself up by undertaking a very dangerous meditation process called Thogal, as shown in Batman (1940) #673:

(Haha. Yes he does think way too much about the Joker.)

And I love how Joker himself, seeing what state Bruce has been reduced to by the Black Glove organization, calls him out on how much of a dumb move it was to do this, in Batman: R.I.P:

“Like there was some rabbit hole you could follow me down to understanding?” This is one of my favorite quotes from Joker, probably. Bruce’s obsession with figuring out how Joker works keeps popping up in comics, but this has to be the craziest thing he’s done because of it.

8). That time Bruce called Joker his friend and proceeded to keep both of them from healing their wounds or saving their own lives, essentially committing murder-suicide, in Batman: Endgame:

Haha. This is fine. Bruce spewing all that bullshit about believing Joker is the Pale Man so he’d have the flimsiest of excuses to keep Joker with him and say ‘I’m sorry’ before they die... it’s fine.

9). That time Bruce got so used to receiving ‘gifts’ from Joker every month that the one time he didn’t get any, he got so incredibly panicked he initiated a city-wide evacuation, devolving into screaming “GIVE ME MY BIRTHDAY PRESENT” into Joker’s face and it’s the best thing ever... in Detective Comics #1027:

I love this little story. Bruce’s internal narration is so good, the whole time, and the way his obsession mounts, culminating in this one insane moment... chef’s kiss. And his broken reaction, the way he’s shown desperate and alone at the end... This one time Joker got his birthday right being the time he offered himself as the gift, and the time he made Bruce ask for it... it’s beautifully tragic.

10). That time Superman killed Joker and Batman went against him, despite Superman being his best friend and technically right (for a bit in the beginning) -- or, everything about Injustice: Gods Among Us.

Alright so. This will get long, but hear me out. The funniest (and the most tragic) part about Bruce in Injustice... is that his behavior only makes sense if he was in love with Joker.

Bruce after Joker commits genocide, killing millions of people and forcing Clark (his best friend) to murder his own wife and unborn child:

“This has always been about us.” He says this after Joker killed eleven million people. It’s so incredibly selfish and self-centred it’s mind-boggling.

And then, Bruce when Joker gets killed:

Already unhinged behavior, yes? I’m including all of this because in these comics, we get the most direct call-out Bruce has ever gotten regarding his feelings for Joker. But I think that placed within context, everything is just so much worse.

Even the dialogue draws attention to the fact that Bruce without the mask, and Bruce putting on the mask, matters in this scene. He only denies Clark’s words after he hides behind the Bat. And later, when he rejects Clark’s offer to join him, he does it as Bruce -- not Batman.

Ultimately, the thing is-- Superman has killed before. And for much less. Hell, canonically, Clark has killed Doomsday, Darkseid, Braniac, Zod, Bizarro... and yes, they more often than not come back to life, but he’s made that decision. Diana killed Maxwell Lord, Jason and Damian (two of Bruce’s own) have killed people before, and Bruce himself shot Darkseid that one time! He made the decision to fire a gun and potentially kill someone for the sake of the Universe! Him saying that he’s disapproving of Clark’s actions because of Clark killing a man is so hypocritical considering the circumstances, and that’s the thing. The text is literally telling us that. Clark is calling out the truth about Bruce’s behavior and putting it out in the open from the start.

“You’re angry at me for taking the Joker away from you.”

That’s it. That’s the main reason the war between Superman and Batman actually happens. The ideological differences and the enforcing of justice and freedom of choice are the collateral; it’s all deeply personal, between them. In the beginning, in Year 1, it’s honestly pretty hard to argue that Clark is even wrong in what he’s doing! He gives a speech against nuclear weapons and makes an effort to stop wars and Bruce interprets it in such a negative light. Obviously, Clark does end up making some very wrong choices, and becoming an actual dictator -- but the tragedy of it all, I feel, is that if Bruce had tried to genuinely help in the beginning, instead of assuming the worst and antagonizing Clark so much... Clark might’ve been saved.

Instead, what we get is Clark turning into Batman’s worst enemy. As if killing Joker passed on a curse; a foe Batman cannot kill and cannot defeat must exist, so Clark took Joker’s place when he killed him. God, I was obsessed with Superbat in this comic for such a long time, too. But to not make this longer than it has to be, I’ll stop here and say... Injustice is a tragedy with admittedly many writing flaws, but in the wise words of Daniel Craig in Knives Out: 

(Hah. Not to mention that Bruce ends up working with Harley in this timeline, the one who helped Joker commit genocide. But sure, allying with Clark is unthinkable.)

And so we have reached the end! This got long as fuck, but well, at this point, I’m sure no one is surprised. I do hope you enjoyed the list, anon!

This is actually one of the photos ever

If you ask me, a pack of wild dogs is the most iconic thing to be torn apart by

gay new yorker. faggot about it!

so real, when I was experiencing delusions being told I was wrong would've made me worse. Many people when they are delusional, especially in association to religious delusions, tend to believe that they've figured out some hidden truth to the world that nobody else knows and could even think that other people telling them they're wrong is natural.

TLDR reality checking delusions can reaffirm them, and otherwise that person might just double down on it or develop other delusions. Since psychosis can't be controlled.

Btw I just wanted to say if you see someone acting delusional (like. Legitimate delusions. Not being misinformed or wrong. Legitimate delusions.) then please mind your own business. It's not your job to reality check them and by doing so you can harm them even further. Unless the person has asked you to reality check them and you're doing what they ASKED you to do, butt out.

When I'm having a delusion about bugs under my skin or something stalking me or literally any other delusion, I don't need someone to tell me "it's not real". I don't care if it's real or not. It's still terrifying to me. Being told "it's not real" doesn't help me, and once the delusion has passed, it makes me feel bad- like I'm just crazy, like my fears and experiences don't matter because they could just be delusions and hallucinations.

This goes for any delusion by the way. You see someone who believes they're God? Cool. Mind your own fucking business. You see someone who believes they have super powers or are an important figure? Cool! Mind your own fucking business.

Now. You may be asking. "Alfie, what if it's my friend and the delusion is stressing them out?"

Comfort them. Treat it like any other problem- if the person prefers advice, give them advice that matches with the delusion. If they just need comfort, do exactly that- tell them you're there for them, etc etc. You're not feeding the delusion- you're comforting your friend when they're stressed and afraid over something.

Don't reality check a delusional person unless you have been asked to by the delusional person.

warrior cat protags go in one of 3 categories

tumblr is for putting your stuff somewhere that's not secret but also not for anyone particular to see so it's true neutral in a really nice way

oo do you have examples of issues that very clearly show jokers avoidant attachment style? I would guess on some level the ending of death of the family?

Well, I said that both him and Bruce rather fit the disorganized attachment style, which is also known as fearful-avoidant-- but Bruce has more "fearful", Joker has more "avoidant".

Bruce, despite all his misgivings, has multiple long-term meaningful relationships. But in Joker's case... intimacy and affection are simply out of the question. Humanity is out of the question, like in the example you've given with Death of the Family. The only person we know for sure he cares about is Bruce, and even in Bruce's case he wildly fluctuates between declaring undying love and genuinely trying to murder him out of spite and resentment. The second closest person to him would be Harley Quinn, and I do think on some level he cared about her, but his relationship with her was manipulative and abusive-- and he tried to kill her too. All of his relationships, outside of the one with Batman, are shallow, and it's because he keeps them shallow. People are something to kill, use, or make fun of, not persons to connect with. If there's any sign of emotion, Joker considers it a weakness. Caring gets you broken above a vat of acid at ACE Chemical factory, with a bat from hell scaring you into committing suicide.

Though I don't think Joker started out so avoidant, much like Bruce... who also started out as something else. Personally I see Bruce as having had an anxious/fearful attachment style prior to his parents' death. But then the loss pushed him into avoidance, and ultimately resulted in him displaying a disorganized or fearful-avoidant attachment style as an adult. Joker might've been fearful-avoidant to begin with, if we go by the likeliest background for him: growing up with abusive parents, then living in orphanages and foster homes, etc. Even the one interaction (remembered reliably or unreliably) with Jeannie in The Killing Joke points to a fearful-avoidant attachment:

Batman: The Killing Joke

He's blowing up at Jeannie, projecting his own self-hatred on her, and then immediately swings into begging for forgiveness. In the end, the core thing about disorganized attachment is... instability. Growing up, the child does not feel like their caregiver is reliable, there to provide food or shelter or the most basic emotional validation. Parents who fluctuate between moments of love and affection and moments of violence and abuse teach their children that love is a minefield. One wrong step, and the landmine blows-- and you never know what sets it off, so you wildly overcompensate or avoid. And Jack acts more like this towards Jeannie: he explodes with anger, gets scared she'll react badly, and then begs for forgiveness. It's also clear that he thinks his value is based in what he can provide. If he doesn't have anything to give Jeannie, will she still love him?

But where Jack was more classically fearful-avoidant, Joker is a lot more avoidant. Even though his life-defining trauma happened as an adult, it profoundly affected his view on the world. As Joker, he still has a need for connection (otherwise we wouldn't have Batjokes)-- but he also hates it and is actively trying to snuff it out. It's a bit ironic that essentially, only with Bruce is where the fearful/anxious part of his attachment style still comes out. Just like with Jeannie in that example, we constantly see him go between "It's your fault I became a monster! I hate your guts and I want you dead!" and "I do all this because I love you! I'm the only one who understands you! Please don't leave me!"