The Dragon Prince Fanfic: Seeking Judgment

THIS IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT

That’s who Aiden is to me

Gymnastics vs Stuntwoman (Adorable audio recommended)

Previously I set off the great Tumblr cascade of "Not to be a lesbian..." with Nicole the Lumberjill.

I think I may have found the sequel.

[ Gracie Kramer ] [ Corinne Nicewick ]

post-crisis batkid canonical ages

“It’s impossible to figure out comic book timelines” - people who are not me and who I cannot relate to. I have crafted this, a coherent, canon-compliant timeline. A quick preface:

This is all for the Post-Crisis (i.e. New Earth/1986-2011/Pre-Flashpoint/pre-reboot/“preboot”/best) continuity.

My main principle here is diegetic evidence from comics >>>> evidence from supplemental materiel (like calendars, timelines from secret files & origins, character encyclopedias, etc)

Second principle is that mentions of ages, birthdays > mentions of time passed > non-birthday month placements (e.g. the start of school years).

We’re going to go youngest to oldest, because it actually makes more sense that way.

Damian is 10-11 at the end of preboot.

Damian’s birthday is not given in Post-Crisis.

Damian is 10 when he becomes Robin, per Batman and Robin vol 1 #1. He is still 10 in Batgirl vol 3 #17. That is the last time I am aware of where his age is said, so he may or may not have turned 11 in the short remaining time before Flashpoint.

Tim is about 7 years older than Damian. He is 17 at the end of preboot.

Tim’s birthday is July 19th (Robin #116).

Tim turned 16 in R#116, before the One Year Later event (where, as you may guess, a year passed), meaning he is at least 17 after OYL. Tim is still 17 in Red Robin #25. Damian becomes Robins between these events, meaning Tim is 17 when Damian is 10, and they are ~7 years apart.

RR#25 is the penultimate issue of Red Robin. Coupled with the significance of an 18th birthday and the fact that we never see one, there is virtually no chance that Tim turned 18 before Flashpoint. He’s 17.

Stephanie is <1 year older than Tim. Steph is 18 at the end of preboot.

Stephanie’s birthday is not given in Post-Crisis.

Stephanie was 15 when she first became Spoiler, per her recounting the story in Secret Origins 80-Page Giant. She is still 15 in Robin #59. In between these events, Tim is stated as 14 in Robin #43. Therefore, Stephanie is older. Stephanie “died” when she is 16, per the last story in Batman Allies Secret Files and Origins, between R#116 and OYL, meaning Tim was also 16. That makes her less than a year older.

She is also one grade above Tim, starting college in Batgirl vol 3 #1, shortly before it’s confirmed by Red Robin #17 that Tim (had he not dropped out) should be a senior in high school.

Stephanie starts college in Batgirl vol 3 #1, and we have every reason to believe she is starting at the “normal” time, making her 18. Since Tim is 17 at the end of Post-Crisis, and Steph is less than a year older, she can’t be any older than 18.

Jason is 1 year, 11 months, 3 days older than Tim. Jason is 19 at the end of preboot.

Jason’s birthday is on August 16th (Detective Comics #790).

No ambiguity here! Tim and Jason are exactly 702 days apart, unless Tim was born on or right after a leap year, making it 703. We know this because Jason’s 18th birthday is on August 16th in DC#790, which occurs after R#116 and Tim’s 16th birthday, but before OYL where Tim turns 17. This means Jason must have turned 18 when Tim was 16.

Jason’s age is never explicitly said after his return. But because his birthday comes after Tim’s, and Tim is still 17 at the end of preboot, we can be completely confident that Jason is still 19.

Cass is 6 months, 21 days older than Jason. Cass is 19-20 at the end of preboot.

Cassandra’s birthday is on January 26th (Batgirl vol 1 #33).

Cass turned 18 in Batgirl #37, shortly before both R#116 and DC#790, meaning before Tim turned 16 and Jason 18. This is well after No Man’s Land, so we can be certain Tim is long-since 15 (see below cut), and since her birthday is in January, we can also be certain Jason is long-since 17. This means Cass is less than a year older than Jason.

Cass’s age is also never said towards the end of preboot, but can be estimated via Jason (via Tim). Knowing Jason is 19 and Cass is 7 months older, we know she must be 19-20 at the end of preboot. However, since her birthday is before Tim’s, we cannot say if it’s passed to be more specific than that.

Dick is probably 6 years, 4 months, 26 days older than Jason (5 years, 10 months, 6 days older than Cass). He is 25-26 at the end of preboot.

Dick’s birthday is complicated, but imo the best bet for Post-Crisis is March 20th (see below cut).

Dick’s age is extremely messy, but here goes. Dick is 19 when Bruce fires him (Batman #419) and Jason is at most 12 when Bruce finds him shortly after (see below). Dick turns 20 while Jason is Robin (Secret Origins vol 2 #13 and New Teen Titans vol 2 #18). Dick is at most 21 in Deathstroke vol 1 Annual #1, after Tim is introduced. This means Dick is 20-21 when Tim is introduced at 13. The ONLY possible way to make all those ages work is for Dick to be ~6.5 years older than Jason, ~8.5 years older than Tim.

Dick’s age is not really said after that, except the vague mention in Nightwing vol 2 #134 that the time around his 17th birthday was “almost ten years” ago. This fits with what his age should logically be based on the difference to Tim, and we can confidently put him at 25-26 at the end of preboot.

A detailed timeline, references, and explanations of what was included or had to be ignored under the cut:

Keep reading

I read this DKoS fic with Bernard in it and I love this interpretation of him because it references his love for conspiracies with him believing in the fae in this universe and Tim not really convinced of the faes existence.

I think the dynamic they have is especially cute with Tim being more down to earth and currently dealing with a lot (the impending war). Meanwhile Bernard is this quirky guy who can be found in the forest and he believes in faes and has his own little rituals and superstitions and it gives me such opposites attract vibes.

Tim is drawn to him despite finding his superstitions and beliefs unusual and most likely untrue. It's actually refreshing for him to be around Bernard and he enjoys hearing his thoughts anyway.

And then I love the end of the fic with Bernard getting help from the fae and Tim being shocked! It's so cool to think of Bernard as this kinda weird guy who seems harmless but the fae are indeed real and he has a special relationship to them and they actively listen to him and help him out. (Or perhaps Bernard is a fae himself 👀👀👀)

Definitely check out this fic if your a Bernard enjoyer!

this one looks better in the dark, so click to see it in its full eerie glory

the levels of deranged evan has reached just to not be gaslit on this cursed ass tv world... not on prime time baby

Just finished the "Dreamer's Nightmare" graphic novel in preparation for season 7 and oooohhhh....I'm looking forward to this thematic reversal with our fav royal bros!!

Cuz King Ezran is definitely not gonna be "feeling like himself".

(Also, how many times now has Callum been frightened to tears over Ezran's mortality?? He's kind of a magnet for these things lol)

@sasheneskywalker i love when you enable me to ramble about things because oh my god do i have thoughts.

so recently, i made a post discussing the phenomena of DC x DP and DC x MLB crossovers and why they exist and part of that post was discussing how largely speaking, at least half, if not more of the Batfamily fandom doesn't read the comics. if they interact with canon DC material, it's adaptations that are their own sequestered universes and oftentimes not remotely comic accurate or seeking to be. the most obvious example is the Young Justice cartoon. i'm adding a cut to this post because it just got so long i'm so sorry.

a lot of times, when people are discussing the "why" of this oversaturation of fanon-only fandom, they blame Wayne Family Adventures. and i think, to a point, i agree WFA is responsible for a boom in this fandom. but as someone who's been in the fandom long before we had WFA, to me it's the other way around. WFA was DC's way of meeting the demand for this easy-to-get-into, easy-to-consume content about the Batfamily that predicates itself on the comics just enough to be vaguely the same characters, but has a more sitcom, slice-of-life sort of vibe so DC could profit off of this section of the fanbase that otherwise wasn't consuming its primary material. and well, it's definitely worked. not only that, but i have a weird theory that the decline in the MCU also led to the rise in the Batfamily fandom. when you consider the fan content that made the MCU popular within fandom, it's that 2012 "they all live in Avengers Tower and Thor is eating poptarts and Clint is in the vents and there are movie nights every Friday" sort of vibe. those were the fics that were a hallmark of the fandom. and as the MCU has strayed from well... quality content in general, but specifically well-thought-out crossover content where characters can have their own arcs but also exist in a wider story where they clearly care about each other, that fandom was sort of homeless. so where do you go, if you like a superhero found family where you can have villains for angst but also stick them all in one big family-like home for silly crack and have a plethora of options for gay ships? well. you go to the Batfamily. if you write a crack/fluff Batfamily genfic with silly vibes and low stakes instead of say, a fic about a very specific comic issue even if it's a popular comic, you're *going* to get more traction for the former. because the fanbase largely just isn't reading the comics.

and i feel... complicated about this. because on one hand, Don't Like Don't Read has been a tenet of my fandom experience. i'm very pro-fandom and that includes fandom content i don't like. and to an extent, i do think this sort of should apply to Batfamily fanon. i enjoy having my moments with other comic purists, giggling over exceptionally painful OOC headcanons or even facepalming in pain over some content but it is on me to not interact with that content. you don't make fandom a better place by being hostile to fans who engage with canon in ways you don't approve of. and frankly? we as comic readers are not going to get non-comic fans to read the comics by being asshats to them. no one is going to want to pick up any comic if we get a superiority complex about it. and also, i feel like we're all lying to ourselves a little bit insisting comics are so, so easy to get into. they're not. we can just all agree, they're really not. i've been single-handedly helping my sister get into comics, specifically Wonder Woman and no matter how simple i make it, i watch her get frustrated trying to understand what pre-Crisis and post-Crisis and New-52 and Flashpoint and all these things mean and what a retcon vs a reboot is and what a Crisis Event is and what the hell Diana's current backstory even *is*. sure, you can give someone a beginner list of comics to start with and slowly dip their toes in the water but sooner or later, *something* is going to confuse them. comics as a medium straight up aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. and if someone *just* wants to read silly fluffy fanfiction about the Batfamily, i can't entirely begrudge them for not wanting to take the hours and hours out of their day to understand this medium. it's not an accessible medium to get into. "read this and this, but this run is out of print and this run wasn't collected in trades at all but also make sure you read that event in order and this is a good comic but the backstory in it is retconned and you *have* to read this it's so important but it's also really bad because the author kind of sucks" sounds. ridiculous for someone who like. just wants to read some stuff about Nightwing. sometimes, we all make reading comics sort of sound like a chore, not a hobby.

so my point is, i do extend some grace to Batfamily fanon for existing. i think my biggest gripe is, as i said in my other post, misuse of tags (if you're not creating content about comics, maybe you don't need the comics fandom tag on Ao3, just the all media types umbrella tag) and my far bigger gripe: when panels are taken out of context to support fanon only headcanons. if i could impart *anything* onto the Batfamily fandom as a comic fan it'd be this: if you haven't *read* the comic, don't spread the panel. if you don't even know what comic it's *from*, don't spread the panel. it's fine to use comic panels to discuss your headcanons, but so often i see someone spreading a comic panel from a comic they haven't read, and when asked where it's from, they can't source it. a silly example that comes to mind is a post going around, taking a panel where Dick, in his internal monologue goes "here comes the sun. do do do do." and the post is claiming it's from him getting buried alive. when that panel comes from Nightwing (1996) #140, and he gets buried alive in Nightwing (1996) #127, two completely different moments frankensteined together. if you're going to not read the comics, that's completely fine, but unless you're sure of the source and the context, panels shouldn't be spread around. i'm sick of this specifically happening to Red Robin (2009), with ppl claiming Tim has totally killed people because he blew up some of Ra's' bases, when those panels within context, make it clear he gave everyone time to escape. and in a later arc in that very comic, Tim grapples with the idea of murdering Captain Boomerang, and *specifically chooses not to*, because he doesn't agree with murder, even against the person who has hurt him the most. if you'd like to write fanfiction where Tim is pro-murder and has done some sketch things, i'm totally on board and would probably like to read it. but there's no need to pretend it's canon from a few panels you saw out of context.

beyond that, i think it's not *entirely* correct to say that fanon is harmless. whenever i see very WFA-positive posts, they often default to the argument that WFA is fun and silly, and comic fans are killjoys for not liking it. which. i think is complicated because the issue is, WFA and fanon don't exist in a vacuum. if you like WFA power to you, i don't think it's the worst thing ever, but i do think it's degrading to these characters because honestly? they feel incompetent in the webtoon. it's one thing if WFA was solely a slice-of-life sort of deal, just having silly episodes where Bruce is taking on a PTA mom or they're all fighting for the last cookie. but when WFA attempts to take on more serious plots with these characters, it *fundamentally* falls flat in understanding them. i get it, Bruce comforting Jason having a panic attack because a noise reminded him of the crowbar felt cute in a microcosm, but i'm so serious when i say that storyline destroyed how like. half of this fandom understands Jason Todd's relationship to his trauma. it doesn't understand how he reacts when he's triggered, what coping mechanisms he seeks out, and how he would handle Bruce comforting him. even if i can believe for a brief moment Jason *would* be triggered by something like that, him running and trying to hide and then getting a hug from Bruce to make it okay is just. painful. WFA needs everything to be wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow. so even when it starts to tackle interesting concepts, it makes them fall flat with its need to be soft, low stakes, hurt/comfort. there was a two-parter episode that dealt with the complicated mutual hatred/jealousy between Tim and Damian that *almost* really interested me because for once, it felt like the webtoon wanted to explore canon messy dynamics. but of course, it had to be fixed with one conversation and a hug. you don't mend the *years* of issues these characters have like that. WFA isn't in character because these characters are hyperbole cartoonified versions of themselves to fit within the medium and be a cute happy family.

because that right there, is the crux of it. the Batfamily fanon seeks to simplify the Batfamily and force them into a nuclear family. there are so many fantastic posts on here discussing how the nuclear family-ification of the Batfam is eroding decades worth of complex histories so i won't go too far into that. but what i will say is that there's this need, in the Batfamily fandom, for the Batfamily to exist as a unit. they are a *family*. (honestly i think calling it the Batfamily is a misnomer and has been for years but we're in too deep now.) they exist to each other first, and any teams or friends they have come secondary to this family unit. you can *specifically* see this demonstrated in what headcanons are becoming popular these days. i have an entire lengthy meta in my drafts about how i *loathe* the "the Batfamily meets the Justice League" genre of fanfic because it makes no *sense*. in order to have this genre of fic exist, you must operate under the assumption that no one in the League, or adjacent to the League, knows the Batfamily exists and are thus utterly shocked to discover Batman has kids. and to make *that* work, you have to strip *every single Batfamily member* of such important dynamics and friendships so you can lock them all in Gotham for their whole lives. Dick can't have the Titans, Tim can't have Young Justice, Duke & Cass can't have the Outsiders, Jason can't have the Outlaws, Damian can't have the Supersons, Babs can't have the Birds of Prey, and so on. because if they had these relationships, they would be known to the League. the Batfamily fandom doesn't care about this, it's just "silly fanfiction", it's not trying to be serious. but how can you say you like Dick Grayson as a character if you don't understand the Titans *are* his family? at some points of his life, moreso than the Batfamily even is. it is constantly repeated to us in most comics with Dick how much the Titans mean to him. he *needs* them to be who he is. the same extends to every other Batfamily member, most of which have been full League members at this point. but in fanon, that doesn't matter. the Batfamily are a sequestered unit first, and all of those side relationships are secondary and easy to toss away, if it makes your fanfic work better.

and because they have to be a unit first, you have these forced relationships that dump years of actual canon material for the sake of making them get along. the Batfamily fandom has its favorites and well. it's no secret it's usually the boys. Jason and Tim by *far* stand out as fandom faves so, their dynamic is a heavily explored one. it does matter that in canon they don't tend to get along and especially don't see each other as family. what matters is that you can push dynamics onto them. and so fanon gets all twisted up about which Robin Tim actually idolized as a kid (Dick) and what member of the Batfamily is pro-murder but still an older sibling figure to him and looks out for him (Helena, or if you want the dynamic of once tried to harm Tim but they've reconciled, Jean-Paul) in favor of who's the most popular. Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian are always going to be the standouts for popularity, but it's specifically Jason and Tim who are getting fanonized the most. and that's because really, we don't have much canon content of Tim that *isn't* the comics. for Dick you've got Young Justice (tv), for Damian you've got the DCAMU, for Jason you've sort of got the Under The Red Hood movie, but Tim sort of lingers in this limbo. (yes, he's in Young Justce (tv) and Titans (live action) but in neither is he the main character nor given much depth) so, he gets a *lot* projected onto him and has become fanonized. and even with Jason's animated movies, you don't see him interact with Tim, so people build it from the ground up how they want to see it, disregarding of canon comics. i think it's what makes him so popular in the first place- he's malleable into whatever you want or need him to be.

and of course, the fanon ignores other characters in the Batfamily it doesn't know about. i feel like you could create a tier list of Batfamily characters by their popularity, going from the fandom main characters: Tim, Jason, Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Damian. to the underrated: Steph, Duke, Babs, Cass. to the forgotten about unless they're convenient for a story: Kate, the Foxes, Helena Wayne, Carrie, Selina, Harper Row, Maps, Minhkhoa Khan. to the absolutely unknown: Helena Bertinelli, Jean-Paul Valley, Onyx Adams, the Clovers, Julia Pennyworth. it's not lost on me that the ignored characters tend to be women and people of color. which is both a canon and fanon problem, DC will continue adding interesting characters to the Batfamily, play with them for a few years, then drop them to default to the "Batboys" again. and it's a vicious cycle of the fandom only caring about the "Batboys", and thus people entering the fandom via fanon osmosis won't have content about the other characters, therefore, they won't be interested in those characters enough to create it, and it's just this ouroboros consuming itself, no matter how much canon content we have of these other characters. and it's ridiculous just how large the Batfamily is becoming because of this, which is why i'm a pre-Flashpoint fan, because then the Batfamily was contained enough to actually feel like a family with every character having nuances relationships with each other, but i digress because those thoughts could be their own post.

and the thing about fanon is it doesn't exist in a vacuum. DC has started turning the comics to accommodate for what fans are asking for, because fans will beg and beg for content they're not going to consume. Tim Drake: Robin had Tim as a coffee drinker because that's the fanon accepted headcanon. and the resolution of the recent Gotham War arc was for Bruce to buy this new manor for everyone to move in and call him. nevermind that most of these characters have their own homes and have zero reason to be moving in with Bruce. Tim had his marina in Tim Drake: Robin, Dick has Bludhaven, Cass and Steph have their little side of town in Batgirls (2022), and so on. these characters are being forced together as a unit, as one big happy family living together, to appease what non-comic fans want and it's damaging comic relationships. Robin: Knight Terrors saw Jason and Tim team up and working together, which i've seen varying opinions on but i personally despised. their interactions made zero sense for any of their canon history, but it appeases them being this close sibling relationship that fanon acts like they are. also the fears they faced in their respective knight terrors didn't make sense for either character and *only* worked as a moment of bringing them together so they could reassure each other and have this weird dreamscape bonding moment. the canon is bending itself to the will of fanon rather than building on the pre-existing complex relationships. Tim barely even gets along with his most important team in Dark Crisis: Young Justice because it seems the only important relationships the Batfamily can have is with each other. and when we do see them outside of the Batfamily, it only seems to be to relive the glory days like with World's Finest: Teen Titans, instead of developing them as they currently exist. this isn't recent in the comics, it feels like you can trace it back to the New-52, but it does feel a *lot* worse over the recent years. WFA is fine when it exists in its own bubble, but the simple truth is, DC content never exists on its own. the adaptations will reflect back onto the comics. (the damage the Young Justice cartoon has done to some characters should honestly be studied) and so it does frustrate me a bit when fanon-only or adaptation-only fans act like we're being nothing but killjoys for being frustrated with this. since they don't read the comics, they don't see how the comics are suffering as a result of this.

people argue about what's out of character for the comics they don't even read. i'm sorry, but "bad dad Bruce" is consistently canon. that man is just kind of shitty. when you take someone who has the drive he has, who has this need for the Mission first, who needs a teenager in spandex next to him to keep him off the ledge, that guy is sort of going to be a shitty father figure. he just is. not on purpose or with malice, but when you compare him to any other dad in a big DC family, he sure takes the cake. it's why characters like Oliver Queen tend to *really* fucking hate Bruce for how he treats his kids. Bruce loves fiercely, but he doesn't do well with putting that love first. and his love is a controlling one, he is very particular about controlling how others in the Batfamily are "allowed" to operate. it's what drives the wedge between him and Dick, it's why Steph is never a true daughter to him. (besides the reason of her needing to be a love interest to Tim first, anyway-) i've never understood the massive outcry of people reacting to Bruce kinda being shitty in comics they're not reading. there are some moments that get ridiculously OOC with how cartoonishly evil he is (the whole Gotham War arc and that... complicated mess with Jason) but largely if you want sitcom loving nuclear father Bruce, you have to accept that is a fanon thing, not a canon one. the Batfamily being a nuclear family in *general* is fanon. most of the "Batkids" don't actually see Bruce in a particularly fatherly light and begging for moments where he calls them his kids or they call him dad outside of incredibly specific circumstances is just OOC.

it's getting harder and harder to exist peacefully in this fandom it feels like, if you don't comply to the standard fanon has set. i'm happy people are having fun with their blorbos, even if in ways i dislike, but that "harmless fandom fun" does ripple it's way back to canon, eventually. so i end up pretty tangled with my feelings because are fans at fault for DC making these poor decisions? probably not, but it certainly feels like an unfortunate cause-and-effect situation whether at the end of the day, nobody is happy. and of course, i know some fanon-only fans are striving to be more canon accurate and care about canon dynamics more than others, but for them it's always going to be an uphill battle with the above-mentioned out-of-context panels thrown around and ever-pervasive fanon overtaking anything that's truly seeking to be canon compliant. so really, it sometimes feels like we're all losing.

I like how leverage has a genius character and an autistic character but the autistic character isn't the genius character. the genius is a 22 year old black man with adhd who becomes an expert in anything you give him within 24 hours and the autistic character is a white woman who jumps off buildings for fun and once stabbed a man with a fork because he encroached on her personal space and sense of moral conduct