If you weren't watching Daredevil and the Punisher when they were coming out it may not be obvious to you-
But the Karen and Frank chemistry was an accident. They caught lightning in a bottle between two characters who never even interact in the comics, but the actors just go crazy in a room with each other.
And they assumed that the Punisher's audience skewed heavily male, that they'd refuse to watch anything not already established in the comics, and that they'd scorn any new plot where The Punisher feels love for anyone, so the writers/producers never fully went there. Even though they clearly know that Frank is made all the more interesting, all the more tragic, when he's not just wallowing in grief for a lost family- he's actively denying the potential of healing and love with a new person. He's consistently being offered a redemptive escape from the violent path he's chosen and he consistently denies it, even though it's clear as day how badly he wants it. That's a more interesting choice! It makes him more pathetic and self-denying, it shows him thinking that he doesn't deserve healing, it shows his conflicted awareness of his own morality, it makes him worse, it makes it clear that this character is tragic instead of aspirational.
So they gave as many hints as they could. The near kiss in the elevator, Karen's heartbeat, the dress Maria wears in his last vision of her (as he lets go of her hand) matching the fabric of the blouse Karen wore the first time he ever saw her, Karen insisting he try to love someone else instead of another war, Micro saying "that's my family that's my wife" and Frank responding "so is Karen." They made it as obvious as they could without actually saying it because they didn't want to piss off the fan base who wants Frank to be a static, stoic, one dimensional vengeance machine.
But now they're back after SEVEN YEARS and they're not fucking around. The first time they're on screen together it is Textually Acknowledged and Stated Out Loud that Frank Castle's heart does the fucking samba when he looks at Karen Page. Matt, the Human Polygraph Test, tells Karen that Frank loves her and that he knows how she feels about him too. (Not to even mention the way he looks at her and acts around her, because Jesus Christ, I have never seen anyone more obviously lovesick.)
This is wild. That's more than the writers really wanting to make it obvious but always hedging. That's more than the actors loading as much weight into each glance as possible because they're gunning for it so hard. It's not just hints, it's text. It's canon.
THE ACCOUNTANT 2 ‧ 2025
And for Frank and Karen, even though it ends with them going their separate ways and having made their choices, he did say that he loves Karen, and she was able to say that back. It felt great to do that. — Deborah Ann Woll[x]
Not to be a High School English teacher on main but:
His heart beat faster as Daisy’s white face came up to his own. He knew that when he kissed this girl, and forever wed his unutterable visions to her perishable breath, his mind would never romp again like the mind of God. So he waited, listening for a moment longer to the tuning fork that had been struck upon a star. Then he kissed her. At his lips’ touch she blossomed for him like a flower and the incarnation was complete.
And I think it describes at least one of the reasons that Frank keeps pulling back right where Karen is ready to kiss him. We know that he feels like he’s dangerous to be around and he wants her to be safe and believes that means being not anywhere near him. We know that he feels like he is supposed to be dead, shouldn’t move on from his family’s murder and specifically from still seeing himself as married to his dead wife. But I also think that he’s terrified to kiss Karen because he knows that it will change him if he lets her in.
Right now his grief is effectively a super power: he’s driven, reckless, accepts no rules but those of his own heart/internal compass. No one can stop him because he’s a dead man walking. But if he lets Karen in, lets her breath new life into him, he will be a living breathing man again with something to lose. He is terrified to be human like that again.
(Not that he’s not already being impacted by this: he does care what she thinks, he does experience the panic of impending loss when she’s threatened. But he’s trying, so hard, not to let that transform him.)
As a bonus, we know that Frank and Karen both read that book (every high school student in the United States was assigned it in 11th grade at the time they were teenagers and there is evidence that both of them actually did their English class readings).
So it’s entirely possible that Frank might even make that connection for himself. They could even argue about it (I don’t think Karen would appreciate being compared to Daisy, even if that’s not actually the point Frank was trying to make).
fratt is actually sooooo important for the culture like. what if you were grieving your best friend in the entire world, your platonic soulmate, and after he dies you have to deal with your grief and guilt and trauma but also your all-consuming romantic and sexual attraction to this fuckass ex-marine whose love for violence matches only your own. happened to my good friend Matt Murdock
only kastle can motivate me to revive a tumblr account i hadn’t touched in almost 10 years just for the gif sets and fics
oh no a sassy character with a sad backstory that acts tough but is actually in a lot of emotional pain and is just as soft as a teddy bear oh no haha.........kiss mw
still giggling abt how while frank was looking at the love of his life, distracted, matt took the chance to call shotgun
Frank and Karen
Daredevil Season 2 + The Punisher + DDBA
Daredevil: Born Again Straight to Hell | 1.09
rewatching the punisher and the kastle elevator scene is my pride and prejudice rain confession scene actually