Metaphysical Question - What Do You Suppose Tolkien Meant To Indicate By Making The 'Flame Imperishable'

Metaphysical question - what do you suppose Tolkien meant to indicate by making the 'Flame Imperishable' so important in the early Valaquenta? It's supposed to technically be the thing that really drew Melkor off-course, is the stuff of souls, yet it winds up as this very mysterious, undefined force. Do you think it's the same light that filled the trees (and thus the Silmarils)? Tolkien loves his light, but I wonder how much these forces are connected in canon.

Oh my friend, you just ask the best questions. *evil cackle*

So, as for what the Flame Imperishable does, literally, that's pretty straightforward. (It's also sometimes called the Secret Fire, in case you wanted to search for that in an electronic version.) Eru uses it to kindle life in all beings from the Ainur to the Children, and without this force, that's impossible. Melkor goes searching for it and can't find it, and Aulë makes little dwarf puppets until Eru sparks them to life personally. Ye Olde classic subcreation examples, so on and so forth. Probably sounds familiar from our first thread ever!

I think that this theme of subcreation is really what Tolkien meant to hammer home with the Flame Imperishable, especially in the Ainulindalë. It's a force to give to living beings, not for them to control—and we never see it outside of this "life force" application. So, I don't really think that the Trees or the Silmarilli literally contained the Secret Fire, though I admit that would make a neat explanation for why Melkor was so obsessed with destroying the first and keeping the second.

But neither are we supposed to put the Flame Imperishable out of our minds when we think of these things. Remember how I mentioned searching for "secret fire" in an electronic copy? Well, I did! And the only time it's mentioned outside of the capitalized, proper force of Eru is in reference to... Fëanor.

...Fëanor grew swiftly, as if a secret fire were kindled within him. He was tall, and fair of face, and masterful, his eyes piercingly bright and his hair raven-dark; in the pursuit of all his purposes eager and steadfast... He became of all the Noldor, then or after, the most subtle in mind and the most skilled of hand.

And there's just too many connections here to dismiss, because when the man named Spirit of Fire grows to become a creator like there's a secret fire, the force of creation, inside of him? And he when makes three jewels with literal bits of his spirit, like a secret fire, inside? Isn't a coincidence. And notably, Tolkien says "as if," not "with," so this is still a simile—but it's a deliberate and telling one all the same.

More Posts from Penelopes-poppies and Others

2 years ago

people are cowards about fantasy settings and not including some things in em. I get the aversion to not wanting too modern of tech, however dwarves would invent and fucking love metal folding chairs


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3 years ago

This is a bathrooms during social events appreciation post


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3 years ago

so there’s that version in which Miriel leaves for Lorien and dies a bit later… consider; preteen Feanor inventing embroidery and weaving machines in an attempt to give his ailing mother the ability to create something back even if she no longer has the strength to.


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3 years ago

But I can’t talk about climactic sentences in Tolkien’s works without mentioning what is, in my opinion, one of the best things that has ever been written in the English language.

And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn. And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin’s sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.

This is unparalleled. This gives me chills every time I read it. It may be my favorite quote in all of Tolkien’s works, except that choosing a favorite quote would be an impossible decision to make. It’s so inspiring. It’s so moving. It’s so heroic. And obviously, it’s a moment of pure eucatastrophe. Rohan had come at last.

And the moment that Pippin hears the horns of Rohan:

When the dark shadow at the Gate withdrew Gandalf still sat motionless. But Pippin rose to his feet, as if a great weight had been lifted from him; and he stood listening to the horns, and it seemed to him that they would break his heart with joy. And never in after years could he hear a horn blown in the distance without tears starting in his eyes.

I LOVE LORD OF THE RINGS SO MUCH


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3 years ago

I need authors to write a oneshot of their characters so I know what I'm getting into before I commit to a whole book about these people


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2 years ago

One of the lawyers currently prosecuting Alex Jones got interviewed on knowledge fight. He talked about how he had to watch 150+ hours of Infowars content as background for the case.

He talked about how he had to take regular breaks because he could feel himself passively absorbing information against his will.


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3 years ago

It sure is convenient that all these songs that ostensibly weren’t written in English all rhyme when translated into English, isn’t it, Mr. Tolkien?


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10 months ago

not even JRR Tolkien, who famously developed the concept of the Secondary World and firmly believed that no trace of the Real World should be evoked in the fictional world, was able to remove potatoes from his literature. this is a man who developed whole languages and mythologies for his literary world, who justified its existence in English as a translation* simply because he was so miffed he couldn't get away with making the story fully alien to the real world. and not even he, in extremis, was so cruel as to deny his characters the heavenly potato. could not even conceive a universe devoid of the potato. such is its impact. everyone please take a moment to say thank you to South Americans for developing and cultivating one of earth's finest vegetables. the potato IS all that. literally world-changing food. bless.


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3 years ago

I like to think that Fingolfin made a big point of making sure that all four of his kids got exactly the same amount of hugs.

He never made a big declaration of it or rubbed it in Finwe's face but it was rather important to him to not repeat that particular mistake

Perhaps there was one kid that he found slightly easier to talk to (maybe Argon since hes the first one to tragically die, or Turgon as they were both on the "stay in tirion" team during the debate) and though this never affected his actions he may have carried the slightest twinge of low level guilt for it


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3 years ago

a tip for when you're looking for something

I, like many autistics (and, from what I've seen, like my friends the ADHDers), absolutely suck at finding things. Set it down on my desk, and poof, it's gone. If I'm looking for something I haven't seen in days? No luck.

But recently, my dad taught me a trick--don't look for the thing. Ask if what you see is what you want to find.

Looking for the pink sticky notes in your drawer? Don't just aimlessly go "where the fuck are my pink sticky notes?"; instead, examine each thing and say "what's that? Tape. What's that? A pen. What's that? A candy wrapper. What's that? OH IT'S MY PINK STICKY NOTES!"

Same concept for finding a certain book on your bookshelf. "Where's Lord of The Rings?" isn't very helpful; going "That's the Hunger Games, that's Cinder, and that's LOTR" is.

Same concept for food in the fridge. "That's milk, that's eggs, that's the cheese I was looking for".

Same concept for basically anything you're looking for. I don't know 100% why it works, but I'd have to guess that by eliminating the general "sweep around" type of searching and forcing yourself to actually look, your brain can't do the weird little "let everything fade into the clutter" thing that a lot of ND brains (and some NT brains!) do.

I hope this can help someone! :D


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penelopes-poppies - lots of Tolkien and autism, no actual poppies
lots of Tolkien and autism, no actual poppies

she/her, cluttering is my fluency disorder and the state of my living space, God gave me Pathological Demand Avoidance because They knew I'd be too powerful without it, of the opinion that "y'all" should be accepted in formal speech, 18+ [ID: profile pic is a small brown snail climbing up a bright green shallot, surrounded by other shallot stalks. End ID.]

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