(Source)

Different Stories Resonate with Different People

Cloud’s flashback in Kalm:

Cloud recalls the days before Nibelheim incident. 

Real-Cloud (the Shinra infantryman) patrols Nibelheim square and continuously stops to stare at the water tower and Tifa’s house. 

Since 1997.

Just saying.

1/2 Hi! What's your opinion about Aerith's resolution scene? It feels like most of fans are more interested in convenient interpretations to confirm/discard the CA ship, without really wondering, from a narrative standpoint, "why", of all the things Aerith could warn Cloud against, she touches the romantic subject? And so early in the story too. Romance in FF7 is often treated by fans as a standalone thing more than something that is interweaved with the main story and has a role within it.

2/2 Should we now re-evaluate the weight of CA relationship in the OG? I never felt like Cloud had more than a crush on her or her death broke him. But when a compilation expands in such a relistic way, the main story needs to be retroactively reinterpreted (like what happened with CC). I'm also wondering what significance we should give to the black floating feathers in this scene (the most visible one appearing when Aerith prays – hard not to think about Sephiroth). PS Sorry for the bad English

Don’t worry, your ENG is fine here!

Anywho, it’s quite the subject isn’t it? I often speak on how sometimes the foundation of a fan’s understanding of the Remake is grounded by their understanding of the OG. Which does make sense and have its merit, but it can also lead to a lot of biased views if there isn’t a consideration of the Remake’s way of storytelling. That’s why we have less of a reasonable spectrum of thought, and more of these black and white interpretations you mentioned floating around. I’ve seen a lot of “Aerith is telling us a fact: Cloud’s feelings aren’t real!” vs. “Cloud confessed to Aerith that he’d fall in love with her!”.

It doesn’t take much time to realize who is saying what.

The first example is talking about something that hasn’t happened yet (e.g. Cloud confirming Aerith’s words), and the second example is talking about something that, by the scene itself, just didn’t happen anyway. From a narrative standpoint and with an understanding of the story of FF7, this part of Aerith’s Resolution reflects two points: Cloud’s false memories/self and Cloud’s feelings for Aerith—more directly, the premise that if Cloud falls in love with Aerith, his feelings won’t be real due to the state of being he’s in. Additionally, this resolution essentially acts as a reflection of Aerith’s GS Date but with twists—the first being that her thoughts on Cloud’s falsity is not tied to the correlation of his similarities to Zack, and the second being that it adds a dash of something more reminiscent of the dream/forest scene (if anything, the Resolution is almost an applicable replacement of it in general). Death, cherishing time left and memories, and Cloud not being completely himself—there’s a lot of foreshadowing here.

This is where people typically use their takes on the OG to formulate a conclusion for Aerith’s premise, as you’ve seen above, with even some extending alternates. For example, that the real reason Cloud’s feelings wouldn’t be real because he’s really in love with Tifa already and is incapable of feeling anything for anyone else as he is.

But my take?

To be upfront, this scene sets up the idea that Aerith is wrong in regards to the romantic storytelling between the two of them. That yes, his feelings (in this case, that of “suki” [すき, romantic like/love when used for a person]) are going to be real despite the state he’s in. Not to mention, it isn’t an “if” he has romantic feelings, because it goes against all reason and understanding of anything else in this scene to suggest this premise was written for the sake of something that won’t happen or won’t be addressed. Even if she is right, this is only effective writing if yes, Cloud indeed falls for her and thought those feelings were real, and thus, finds out that he truly doesn’t feel that way once he regains his true self. There’d be no point to this line if he doesn’t feel this, otherwise for the sake of writing, it would’ve made more sense for her to suggest that what she just talked about (the memories/moments/happiness shared) were going to be what wasn’t real, specifically.

Until further information tells me otherwise, I believe Aerith is going to be wrong because of how the OG and relevant material presents what Cloud retains once he regains himself.

Let’s get into it.

Unlike the OG, Aerith is presenting the falsity of Cloud not through her own feelings, but that of HIS. She’s not assuming that the mantra of “embracing the moments” is something that Cloud won’t retain—it’s just the romantic feelings that will grow from them. We don’t have to worry about whether what Cloud retains from these moments and memories of Aerith are false. Why? Because that was completely fine in the OG. The moments, memories, and the bond they shared were all real to Cloud after he regains himself. And obviously, not just with Aerith, but with all his companions. If he didn’t retain what he gained while Aerith was alive, he just simply wouldn’t have any reason to value Aerith, it’d almost be like he doesn’t know her existentially at all. But that isn’t the case. Really, what he gained with his companions was never put to the test of falsehood in the first place.

But the romance? So specifically?

The “why” of everything that is said in this scene is done for some narrative purpose, representing future events and themes to be further implemented down the line. In a literal conversation about romantic feelings to be confirmed or denied story-wise—this is romantic storytelling, and whether you like it or not, it has been issued between the two characters. And of course, I believe it should make someone re-evaluate their understanding of the OG—not in the way where the story itself begets change (like that of the effect with CC, as you mentioned), but more so in realizing that the Remake is just a more expressive reflection of the romantic storytelling that was already in the OG. The writing and approach of the Remake is different than that of the OG, as we can even see between the expressions and details expanded on, like say for Cloud and Tifa’s bond and what that alludes to later down the line as well. This same thing is done for Cloud and Aerith, and what may not have been as openly expressed, is now done so too.

In the OG, the romantic storytelling between Cloud and Aerith played on the typical RPG standard of player-story interactive choice, but was contained in that by not having the story clearly address those choices through Cloud’s character after he regains himself. That and all relative materials like interviews or guidebooks relative to the OG—we only have a few direct romanticisms and some that can be argued as indirect given context. It’s not absent, but it’s unclear to the point it’s a discussion people still have 20+ years later. Also, by those possibly confused, player choice does not eliminate this through character representation—I’ll digress as it’s a whole other thing.

Cloud’s time with Aerith isn’t a mystery—we see everything between them and experience it as the player. We know what did or didn’t happen, what could be expressed, and what we’re left with in regards to romanticism is more of an unaddressed, almost irrelevant idea. What’s represented openly instead is everything else about their important bond, basically. Romanticism—it’s all in the air, not invalidated, but also not further represented for the character in the things referenced afterwards, like Cloud mentioning his memories of her, wanting to see her in death [Promised Land], Aerith being a friend, comrade, irreplaceable, etc. His time spent with Aerith was still something Cloud kept with him.

So, if the question for the OG is: did Cloud retain any romanticism for Aerith as a cherished feeling/memory, too?

I believe by right of the storytelling values presented in the game, that yes, he did. While the game and other materials make no attempt at trying to elaborate on Cloud’s favor towards Aerith, they also don’t negate it in void either from his character. A general good rule of thumb: usually when you have romantic meaning issued between two characters, whether through parallels, symbolism, other characters, the characters themselves, etc.—if it’s something that isn’t confirmed (e.g. confessions or explicit showing of romantic interest) OR isn’t countered or denied significantly (obviously not including the typical false denial by a character), then typically, you go with the positive-end that the representation there does indeed confirm that romanticism.

Think about it like this: remember that show you watched where the two lead characters had romantic subtext, but the show ends without them getting together? Yeah. If you’re at the point of claiming romantic subtext, you’re not doing so for the sake of saying the authorial intent is to show non-romance, but to show romanticism in a subtle way. There are a myriad of writers who have this style, and getting a direct confirmation or explicit showing of romance isn’t always in the cards for how that storytelling is going to be expressed. But, that hardly erases what is still intended to be understood.

The thing about Cloud and Aerith, the romanticism that can be understood from Cloud IS indeed never confirmed, not like how it was for Tifa. Which, I do advocate this actually does showcase how his romantic feelings for Tifa have a further depth than of that for Aerith given the lack of relevancy in comparison. However, his feelings for Tifa don’t negate what he felt for Aerith in totality, not to the point of being evidence of absence. The OG and further materials paint the picture that, after Aerith’s death, Cloud still remembers and cherishes her as a comrade—the memories, the moments. All of it. What’s understood is that everything that Aerith was to Cloud was carried over and fueled his reason to want to see her even in death—if romanticism was a part of those memories, those moments, no matter how small in the grand scheme of their connection, we can’t cherry pick it out of existence just because it doesn’t take expressive priority. From the game itself, I would use the “positive-end” method to understand that the romanticism there IS a part of the character, and if I include representations from other media or interviews, the authorial intention becomes much more clear.

As for the depth of these feelings? Again, Cloud’s time with Aerith isn’t a mystery. Whatever happens during that part of the game IS the depth of the feelings. I won’t identify it as a “crush”, but I just know it wasn’t deep enough to cause conflict in his relationship with Tifa because rationally (and by general storytelling standard), it would if so.

In any case, without a specific negative address of that romanticism, we can’t reasonably split apart what Cloud felt for Aerith from everything else he retained from his time spent with her.

And that’s what the Remake is basically addressing, pretty directly this time. I feel that way about a lot of things, and I absolutely believe the story is better off with it as we’re reaching more avenues for telling the FF7 story and development. What we’re getting here is something more direct and expressive than the OG, as I believe we will for most things, like we already have with Cloud and Tifa, Tifa and Aerith, and even Zack and Aerith. It’s doing much more. One could say that it might be making more of the romance than it was in the OG, but to me, I believe it’s about the same. The subject matter being brought up directly won’t change that on its own, but it’s curious that it was brought up this way.

So, if the OG didn’t represent the meaning of Aerith being right, that anything of which Cloud has for Aerith was made to be false after he gained his true self, then I don’t believe the Remake has a reason for doing it either. This is reinforced by the fact that Aerith being right just isn’t congruent with a lot of the other themes happening in the story there. It makes no sense to pinpoint the romantic feelings specifically as something Cloud didn’t feel—and again, his feelings for Tifa shouldn’t be it. How they decide to show the “answer” is up for thought as writers, as discussed, will find many ways to give meaning from their story. If the writing is consistent, what some CA fans expect won’t be what they will get, but CT fans acting like the meaning from the resolution won’t pop up ever again are already missing the point, too.

There are other interesting things though, like Aerith’s thoughts on death and this lifestyle point of view—how this connects to her hatred of the sky and those she has lost will be an interesting point for her character. Maybe even the anticipated arc of her time in death within the Lifestream and reuniting with Zack. We might finally get solid context for that. As for the black/dark feathers, I’m not sure if it even is, but it would certainly match the motif, like at the very beginning when Cloud is in the reactor. It flying by like that could simply be part of the reference to her death.

responsible adults

Sephiroth:

Mass murderer

Child soldier

Lab experiment

Demigod

Enemy of humanity

Actual child

Monopoly host

High school student

Uninvited Smash attendee

Udon salesman

Impossible to take seriously anymore

Reblogging because fundamentally I agree on everything but one point. Adding the "read more" line because I ended up writing more than I expected, it's late at night and probably it's filled with grammar mistakes and inconsistencies.

First of all I'm loving this article, it's really well written and I agree with its content.

The only point I disagree is the firm idea that Aerith will undoubtly die OR her presence will ruin other characters' arcs.

I'd say you're right if we could reasonably assume that from now on things will be going exactly like in the OG and that Aerith's survival is just the faint illusion of some fans. But after all the changes set in the first part of the Remake I don't see how things could be faithful to the OG anymore.

I think Aerith has a big chance to survive. The first part hinted her death way too often to just end up in the Forgotten City and let her die the way she did in the OG. Like "do you remember the tons of times Cloud foreshadowed her death and Aerith seemed to hope she could change her future? Well, it was useless she died anyway". Oh thank you Square Enix.

I don't want to degress too much on plot speculations and stay close to the shipping subject, but can we still assume this is just a Remake of the story as we know it? Maybe yes, probably no. If we defeated the "Whispers" I guess everything can happen from now on. As far as we know this could turn out to be a sequel, or even an illusion.

Aerith's survival is irreconcilable with the events of the original story just like Zack's survival but...actually he survived anyway.

The point is that whatever happens, wherever this Remake will bring us, her survival won't affect the romantic endgame. I am a CT. And not because I prefer Tifa over Aerith, but because I think that reading this story under the perspective of "Cloud will always love Aerith" is both inconsistent and turns Cloud into one of the worst jerks in the world. For a tons of reasons that CAs usually conveneintly ignore.

The big problem of this story is that SE never fully closed Aerith's character arc for what concerns the romantic aspect. In the OG she had strong feelings for Cloud, then there was the date (yes I think her date is the canon one), Cait Sith's prediction and...? She died and the romance died with her, and Cloud never talked about her until the end of the game. She saved everyone from the Lifestream, but what about her and her feelings? When we discovered the truth about Zack there was not a single word that closed their story. Zack said one line about Aerith and it is even not much of a great line. I get why Maiden was created, even if I'm convinced it's not a canon entry.

That's what caused the LTD not the fact that CT wasn't obvious. People who really like Aerith can't accept her being left alone in the Lifestream with Cloud and Tifa living happily ever after. They can't accept Cloud's feelings faded away when he regained his true personality, at the point that most of them refuse that Cloud had ever had a fake personality in the first place.

Crisis Core somehow tried to fix this flaw of the OG but the damage was already done and I lost count of how many times I argued with people who rabidly try to diminish the importance of Zerith. There's no other entry in the compilation where romance is more blatantly obvious than CC but this still happens too often: People trying to disminish the canonicity of CC in favour of Maiden. People saying Zack and Aerith weren't in a relationship. People saying Cloud didn't love Tifa at the time of Nibelheim incident. People saying Zack was in a relationship with Cissnei. People saying Cloud was always himself and trying to minimize his brain damage and the link with Zack. People claiming that Zack in AC was just a product of Cloud's imagination.

I could spend the whole day adding examples. All this to proof that even if Cloud lives with Tifa and raises children with her for at least 4 years (Case of Denzel is set after DoC) they live as totally strangers, because he'll pine for Aerith forever, throwing away all the themes of AC. It's so ridiculous that's incredible that someone could really believe it. But actually A LOT of people are convinced about this, sometimes it feels like most of the fandom thinks so.

SE knows it, they are aware of how many fans want a happy ending for her. Like you said, for many fans she IS the greatest, bestest and most importantest, and she can't be dismissed once again in the Forgotten City just to show up to save the day when Meteor is about to distroy the world. The devs have to give an answer to the expectations between Cloud and Aerith that they set 24 years ago. And they could do it by letting her survive.

The king of CA claims has always been: "IF Aerith survived she'd have been the love interest" followed by "she would heal Cloud in the Lifestream" and "She'd have the Highwind scene". They're debunkable under many perspectives but - at least when I tried to - it never worked. Withthe Remake the devs could let her survive and show that her life doesn't affect the bond between real-Cloud and Tifa. She can't steal moments that belong to other characters. She wouldn't even want to do it. The Lifestream scene will always be Tifa's scene, no matter how much some fans would like to see it played by the mage instead of the monk.

The devs already started to show this. Remake Aerith knows something about the future, and her flirtious attitude toward Cloud is different than in the OG. All their original flirting scenes were removed, most of the new flirting scenes heavily refer to Crisis Core (when they're not a copy&paste), reducing to a minimum the genuine bonding moments between them. Hell, of all the themes her resolution scene could revolve around, the core of it is the famous "You can't fall il love with me. It's not real." No matter how much some people try to distort this sentence to turn it in a love confession. It isn't. It doesn't matter how much people try to read Hollow as a CA love song, it starts when the camera focuses on Zack and Aerith. The devs are softly giving to fans the answer about the LTD in a way that her presence won't affect the outcome.

So I really hope she could survive. For one because I'm selfish, I like her and I don't want to cry her death in 4K. Then because if she dies again at the Forgotten City, the "IF" statements will be brought up again and again and again. Even if the devs would show Cloud and Tifa getting married, someone will always claim that deep in his heart he loves Aerith and Tifa is a rebound, and I don't really feel like keep debating again about who Cloud Strife loves over the next 25 years.

Dead or friendzoned, choose one: The Aerith uncertainty principle.

This article argues that while it might be possible for Aerith to be a love interest in FFVII:R, or that she might survive in FFVII:R, that these things can't both happen. disclaimer: I don't believe either will be happen. ______________________________________________________ Imagine this, the year is 2040, you're playing FFVIII:Remake. Rinoa is doomed out in space, just when she thinks she's about to die, she looks up and sees Squall coming towards her, in a move of unprecedented daring he had jumped out of the Ragnarok to go save her. Your eyes start tearing up as the last recollections of your childhood flood back into your mind and out your eyes. And then, suddenly, from the side of the screen.....Seifer comes floating into frame. Oh yeah, you had almost forgotten, Seifer didn't become evil during the remake timeline.

Afterwards, in the cockpit, Seifer hugs Squall and Rinoa as eyes on me starts playing. How big of an unwelcome intruder would Seifer be in that situation? How much of an insult would this be to one of Rinoa and Squalls most iconic moments? Clearly this would never happen, but why not? If Seifer hadn't turned evil, surely he'd have wanted to save Rinoa as well. Logically it makes sense for him to be there, and yet I think everyone would understand why Seifer isn't welcome there. So why on earth, when discussing final fantasy VII, do I honestly hear people say that if Aerith had lived, she'd have saved Cloud in the lifestream sequence and what's more, actually advocate for this to happen? People need to realize that even if you think Aerith is just the bestest, brightest, most importantest character in the universe, other characters still exist, and people love those other characters. And some of those people work at Square Enix, and they sure as hell won't elevate one character to the detriment of all others. Tifa and Cloud have moments together, important moments, iconic moments. There is Tifa choosing to stay behind and take care of Cloud in Mideel, there is the lifestream, there is the highwind. These are all beloved, iconic moments that fans are clamoring to see, and in each and every one of them Aerith is as unwelcome as Seifer is during "eyes on me", or Rikku during "Suteki da ne". Aerith is an ancient, the entire plot revolves around her, everyone loves her, she has magical powers and is the only person who can save the world! Imagine someone whose already that important, and then forcing her into moments belonging to other characters, there is no quicker way to aggravate a fanbase, or make a character distinctly unlikable. So Aerith, fundamentally, cannot be in those scenes, because those moments belong to other characters. But if Aerith is alive, and a supposed love interest, can she really be left out of those scenarios? Imagine Cloud is in a coma, imagine Tifa staying with him to take care of him while Aerith goes to save the planet. Imagine Tifa going into Clouds sub-conscious and pulling him out, then imagine Cloud and Tifa spending the night before the battle together, cementing their importance to each other, while Aerith goes to spend the night at Elmyra. Then, afterwards, the party defeats Sephiroth and Cloud rejects Tifa in favor of Aerith..... Cementing him as the biggest asshole ever, and Aerith as the most undeserving Mary Sue winner of a love triangle of all time.

Do you see any way of doing that that would not be a gigantic slap in the face to the character of Tifa? Who cared for Cloud while in a coma, who journeyed through his sub-conscious with him and spent her last night on this earth together with him? Fundamentally, the only way Aerith can survive, is if she takes a back in other story-arcs. People have tried to invent nonsensical ways in which Aerith could save Cloud from the lifestream, or suggest alternate routes where you still have the standard "Tifa route", but can also choose the "Aerith route". And all these ideas conveniently ignore the same basic thing. Aerith isn't the center of the universe. Every scene, every moment, every piece of importance you give to her, causes her to cast a larger shadow on the rest of the cast. People want her to be the love interest because they look at her importance to the plot, to her powers as an ancient. They look at how much of a main character she is and their first reaction is somehow "lets give her more". But her importance is exactly why this can never happen, because in order for her to take up the roles played by other characters, those characters need to take up the roles she leaves behind. And Tifa cannot do that. No matter how alive Aerith is, no matter how in love Aerith and Cloud are, Tifa will never be able to summon holy, she will never be able to save the planet by talking to the essence of life. Tifa can never fill Aeriths role, which is why Aerith can never fill hers. Because both matter, and if the thing that makes one special is taken from her, and given to the other, then you've insulted your characters, your fanbase, and your legacy by making one character the sad shadow of who they were, a pathetic ant compared to 'the Mary goddessue'. Aerith cannot do everything. Which means that if you love Aerith, you have 2 choices. You can either have Aerith be a genuine potential love interest, and have that plot point die with her. Or you can have her survive, and sit by as she takes a backseat to other characters, or you can have neither, but you can't have both. Or, you can do the worst of all worlds and argue that the entire story will change to fit this new harlequin romance novel you've invented and antagonize all your fans by removing all those iconic scenes altogether.....yeah, I don't see that happening.

Hi! I see many FFVII fans having great difficulties to accept Crisis Core as a legit canon entry of the compilation. Many of its scenes are often dismissed as fanservice or lazy copy&paste of the OG, and many lament that this game ruined the personalities of the characters. What do you think about it? Thanks!

Thanks for the ask!

I often think of this quote from one of my favorite shows, and even in the case of evaluating entertainment, I wish people would often think about this in how they move forward in discussions:

“If you stop seeing the world in terms of what you like and what you dislike, and saw things for what they truly are in themselves—you would find a great deal more peace in your life.”

— Patrick Jane, The Mentalist S2Ep.6

Without trying to sound too dismissive of people's free opinions, a lot of this type of commentary either doesn't come from a good, foundational understanding of canon or a more clearer-headed, objective understanding of the content within and of itself. Especially with the perspective of the writers and what they essentially wanted to achieve. The idea of everyone having their own personal takes is the way of being human, but once we enter discussions online, this becomes more like a plague that spreads and creates/shapes even more misunderstandings.

I've seen many things over the years so I can't exactly pinpoint everything, but the most direct is that there's no point in time where Crisis Core hasn't been a legitimate, canonical entry in the FFVII canon. There isn't any room for debate on that if we're talking about the FFVII canon as seriously as possible—you'd be having a laugh otherwise. Now, the evaluation of its actual materials? That's just the difference in why people say the things they do, spectrums between agendas, personal feelings, or inclinations with trouble accepting things that otherwise would cause them conflict. We can't allow these things to dismiss our understanding of storytelling, to dismiss the fact that, while a multitude of things can be included in any content that is simply there to be entertaining, this doesn't always reflect its actual nature in regards to canonicity, or to dismiss the prospects that the Compilation isn't just extra stories of the FFVII, but is a DEVLEOPMENT of the world first established—we need to be able to look at the growth and application of this content from a practical perspective, and if we're having discussions, try to be a bit more objective when making a point to another. The game sure isn’t perfect, in whatever standard that could ever be, but the conclusions reached like you mentioned are by people who don’t help things get done. Calling the game "fanservice" or disregarding intentional parallels as "lazy copy & paste" without looking at the context of WHY it was made—we're not going to get anything done.

That's why certain discourses in this fandom, lasting decades long, doesn't get done, and never will until people change the way they think about things and why.

Barret in Costa del Sol mod