You Aren't Faking

do you have any advice for trying to figure out if im a RAMCOA survivor or if im experiencing delusions? there are some alters in my system fully believe we are a RAMCOA victim and claim to have memories to support this, but the rest of us think that we are just experiencing delusions and that these memories are incorrect or exaggerated.

I want to preface this by saying most of our delusions come from excessive paranoia in our OCD. Fear we have done something, will do something, are evil, and will do more evil, all when fully unreasonable to think and not comporting with reality. However we are not by any means a fully reliable source for this. Ultimately differentiating repressed memories and delusions should be done by a professional who is knowledgeable in both fields.

First of all, do you have a history of delusions or any type of delusion-prone mental health condition in your family? If not it is more likely it is an actual memory than a delusion. If you don't have a disorder that makes you delusional/delusion-prone or easy to be convinced of false things, it is more of a possibility than it would be otherwise. Do you have an anxiety disorder that can allow for delusional paranoia? That can sometimes happen.

Second, why do you think it's a delusion. What genuinely makes you feel it is one? If you can find a reason that reason may lead to more of an answer. Sometimes you can figure out that you think its a delusion because it has no basis in reality or doesn't properly fit into whatever gaps you do have or it doesn't seem to make sense in your specific case.

Another thing to note- a lot of the time RAMCOA survivors who are systems will have an entire grouping of alters who had little to no awareness of the RAMCOA whatsoever. I myself writing this now (Dorian), am not an alter who has any connection to that trauma. I find it strange and odd- the only reason me and others in my grouping have accepted enough of it is due to articles and exposes and literally drama board blogs around the cult we grew up in, as well as more things to do with excessive gang activity in the area. I also have had to realize my role itself spawned from RAMCOA but was so niche and specific that it didn't need to have me be aware of why it was going on. (Most likely I am made out of fused fragments which is why I'm a fully fleshed out alter today with no awareness of what my main role has been for- or perhaps my role was able to cover other things happening organically enough that it was more common).

One other way we differentiate delusions and genuine memory for ourselves is that... if the memory explains something like an entire OCD theme, a grouping of behavior, nightmares, and specific issues that could reasonably be tied to the specific memory, we tend to be pretty sure it is genuinely a memory. Most recently these have also only come up via flashbacks that have made alters become incredibly self-destructive and distressed to a degree that has only ever happened with uncovering of horrific trauma memories before.

Again we cannot tell you anything that will be 100% accurate. This is something that is incredibly personal and should be talked over with a professional. Additionally be careful because there are some bad professionals who think ALL ramcoa is delusion because they reject the reality of of ramcoa existence blatantly. Make sure it is someone who is properly trauma informed just as much as you need them to be informed on delusions and delusional disorders to make sure they don't just fully ignore that either.

Resources!!

There are many masterlists of resources for or about plurality, but we thought we'd make one about sites and posts that have been extremely helpful to us. Some resources are about overall plurality, some about headspaces, even some about alterhumans. This is a catch-all for helpful things and will always be in progress as we find more. If you would like us to add something, please tell us!

The Plurality Hub by the Heretic System

The Alterhuman Hub by the Heretic System

Alt + H: The Alterhuman Advocacy Group by Alt + H

The Chimeras Library by House of Chimeras (liongoatsnake)

Developing Internal Communication - Starting With The Basics by Kathy Broady MSW

All the Resources You'll Need to Build Your Own Wonderland, Headspace, or Inner World by Sophie in Wonderland

Power to the Plurals by The Plural Association Nonprofit

Here for the Plural Folk

Healthy Multiplicity by LB Lee and The Zyfron System

Tulpas and Mental Health: A Study of Non-Traumagenic Plural Experiences by John Doe, Jacob J Isler

Endogenic Systems by Plural Culture

More Than One

Plurality Resource

New Alter Rundown by the Heretic System

Plural Terms by Cluster Brains in collaboration with The Trifecta Collective and the Polybius Network

Multiplicity Database Systemology

A Tulpamancy Resource Site

Quick'n'Dirty Plural History by LB Lee

System Internet Safety by Sunflower

Pluralpedia

Alternatives to "System" When Choosing A Collective Name by The Xenodelic Effect

Tips if You're Having Trouble Visualizing Your Inner World by the Orange Orchard System

Multiplicity and Plurality Wiki

List of Tulpa Guides by Vos

The Plurality Playbook by Lucia Batman and Irene Knapp

Plurality Resources by Rolal District

Endogenic Hub

The Plural Dictionary

System Sources by Cluster Brains

Resources for Faceclaims/Forms by Wild Tulip Field

DID Basics by Cleveland Clinic

Simply Plural Website (There is also an app version)

System Communication and Journaling by The Wonderland System

hope this is okay to ask but how would a system who suspects RAMCOA figure out what their programming type is if they show signs of a few different kinds? alternatively; are different techniques sometimes programmed together?

(Warning ahead of time; I will not be censoring any words or topics here. Also, I talk a lot.)

I want to emphasize ahead of time: most cases of RAMCOA do not involve programming. RAMCOA exists on a wide spectrum, and programming is extreme conditioning, starting as a young child, that specifically creates dissociative barriers (thus, creating a system) which requires consistent access and organization. Most cases of RAMCOA do have some levels of conditioning, but well defined programs are considerably less common. You can be a RAMCOA survivor without programming (or, in our case, loosely defined and poorly executed programs that border on "normal" conditioning).

Anyways...

I've recommended this before, but track your symptoms. RAMCOA relies on patterns & consistency, but especially programming. Track emotions, internal system happenings, switches, and their triggers the best you can (whether using a digital medium like Notion or a physical journal). Being able to correlate specific dates & stimuli to symptoms will make a huge difference. Part of how we figured out we have some sort of proto-Delta (aggression, fearlessness, emotional detachment, etc.) programming is through noting how we reacted to wounds/blood, both ours and others'; how specific parts front or come closer to front during times of stress or fear; vague memories of forced perpetration being triggered by certain weapons, scents, or bodily positions; etc.

It is honestly way rarer to find a system with one kind of program in this context. This because nearly all have some sort of basic obedience training, often referred to as "alpha" programming. Another near-universal program is some sort of access program: basically, a way in for programmers to call alters to the front, modify & implant programs, etc. Other kinds of programs are stacked on top of this, relating to whatever the victim's "specialization" would be. For example, sex trafficking that utilized programming would result in a victim probably having some sort of transport program (often to fall asleep on command so they do not know the route or location), one or multiple of the many sexual related programs, an amnesia on command program, and typically, some sort of therapy & abreaction interference program. And that's just the bare bones.

Additionally, some victims may not have a singular specialization, possibly because they were some sort of experimental ground for new programs or new combinations of programs, their group was not very organized or changed focus mid-programming of the victim, or they were the child of higher-ups in the group and expected to perform more complex roles.

If by "technique", you mean different methods of implantation or organization, that is also somewhat par for the course. Some groups change goal or formation over time, others may on-board programmers with a different "style" (an organized crime syndicate utilizing a programmer with a military background, for example). I know that only some of our system is structured strictly & militaristically, because one of our abusers was in the military.

Also... Don't be afraid of being wrong. Sorting out what happened with RAMCOA is confusing on multiple levels—trauma & dissociation warps memories, abusers will lie and trick victims, what happened is often decade(s) old, etc. You are allowed to question, research, and, if you want to, join survivor's spaces. It will be a long journey, but you are not the first and, unfortunately, quite definitely not the last.

I hope your answers come quickly, painlessly, and clearly. - Aisling

“Having DID is rare-“

Ok and being a beekeeper isn’t the most common profession ever but I sure see a lot of them when I search “beekeepers” in online spaces.

Disorganized Attachment and Dissociation

As promised, Anon, here’s a VERY quick and dirty rundown of disorganized attachment and the role it plays in the development of dissociation. Sorry it took so long ;–; This doesn’t even begin to cover it, but I hope it at least gives people a basic understanding.

Please remember, this is so incredibly brief and barely scratches the surface. It’s a really interesting field of research, and it has a lot of important (and good!) implications to therapy techniques and models. I highly encourage people that are interested to look through some of the below resources, or make a request for any specific aspects you want discussed further. Apparently, left to my own devices with a broad topic, I fail to be coherent.

What is disorganized attachment (DA)?

There are technically 4 types of attachment between a child and caregiver, differentiated by response patterns. The first 3 types (secure, insecure-avoidant, and insecure-ambivalent) are considered forms of “organized attachment”, despite the negative behaviours associated with it, because even if they’re not “secure”, the behaviour patterns are still organized and, more importantly, consistent. In other words, in all 3 types of organized attachment, the child knows exactly what they need to do to meet their emotional needs, and the patterns in their behaviour are considered organized.

In DA, though, the child is confused, and there’s no pattern to their behaviour. They’re torn between wanting to flee to, and flee from the caregiver. When a caregiver is unpredictable and traumatizing, the child has a difficult time establishing a consistent view of the caregiver, and of themselves. In other words, the caregiver is both needed, and someone to be avoided, and the child may not understand what makes them a “good” or “bad” child, as the caregiver’s behavior is often confusing and unpredictable.

It’s summed up quite well in this image:

What causes disorganized attachment?

All the same standard things you would already know about. Abuse, neglect, behaviour that’s frightening, intrusive or insensitive, and disrupted affective communication, but it really boils down to, “A parent’s consistent failure to respond appropriately to their child’s distress, or by a parent’s inconsistent response to their child’s feelings of fear or distress.” And this happens in childhood. The way a baby or very young child form attachments are the base building blocks that a child will use to build their relationships with people in the future. 

It’s important to note that it’s not just abuse that can cause a child to form DA. Sometimes loving caregivers who have experienced trauma themselves can behave in confusing ways toward the child, especially if they are suffering untreated PTSD or DID themselves. This happens because of the caregiver’s own inability to control their emotions. Traumatized parents can have a difficult time managing their emotions and providing a sense of security for the child even though they are not abusive or neglectful. Anger or fear can erupt unexpectedly and traumatize the child. 

As well, “Disorganized attachment is often the result of intergenerational parenting patterns. This means parents are responding to their children in the same unhealthy ways their own parents responded to them when they were children.”

What role does disorganized attachment play in dissociation?

This one is… A bit tough. There’s a lot of factors in play and so much ground to cover.

First, when discussing dissociation, it’s talking about it in a general sense. Everyone is capable of dissociating, and it’s simply when you become detached from reality in response to trauma– at any age, for any kind of traumatic event.  It’s also important to note that without a secure attachment style, an overwhelming event is more likely to be perceived as trauma. Basically, though, dissociation is a general symptom in this regard, not specific to any single disorder. DA is linked to dissociation, and from there, combined with other symptoms someone may be experiencing, it can become problematic and be assigned to specific mental disorders. 

So, the child needs to maintain a relationship with the caregiver– they have no one else to turn to, so the child can develop dissociation as a way to make sense of themselves, and to maintain a child-caregiver relationship. They may “forget” the abuse, or deny it. “It is an adaptive and defensive strategy that enables the child to function within the relationship, but it often leads to the development of a fragmented sense of self.” This fragmented sense of self may or may not develop into something worse– namely, BPD and DID based on severity, frequency, and whether there was any sense of reprieve (i.e. a child can avoid the worst of dissociative symptoms if one of their parents was more supportive, because it helps them build some positive attachments).

Children with DA and suffering from abuse “are likely to generate two or more dissociated self states, with contradictory working models of attachment,” in order to handle their confusing relationship with the caregiver. From there, “It is proposed that the propensity to react to traumatic events with dissociation is related to disorganization of early attachment and its developmental sequelae.” This is fundamentally the basis of why DID can’t form once the child creates an integrated sense of self. It is theorized that DA and dissociative disorders are inexplicably linked together. You can have DA and not develop DID/OSDD, but you can’t have DID/OSDD without DA. 

A lot of new research is suggesting that it’s not so much trauma as we know it (physical and sexual abuse) that is linked to dissociation, but that trauma is something that is far more discrete and insidious (longterm inconsistent and confusing parenting styles linked to DA) and that it’s only part of “a complex web of environmental, societal, familial, and genetic factors that are all likely to interact in ways that we have only begun to understand.” This is something I firmly believe in and attribute to a lot of the endogenic claims of having no trauma (and under this theory, “overwhelming events” also constitute trauma). 

Interestingly, it’s theorized that different types of attachment are linked to different mental disorders. “Attachment insecurity can therefore be viewed as a general vulnerability to mental disorders, with the particular symptomatology depending on genetic, developmental, and environmental factors.” Going back to the 4 types of attachment, the 3 insecure types can be linked to basically all types of disorders. They are all linked to depression, anxiety, OCD, PTSD, eating disorders and suicidal tendencies, but those with anxious attachment are more likely to develop things like DPD, HPD and BPD and are drawn to co-dependent relationships. Those with avoidant attachment are more likely to develop things like SPD and APD and form addictive habits, and those with disorganized attachment are more likely to develop DID/OSDD. 

Sources:

Identifying Attachment Problems

How Disorganized Attachment Can Lead to Dissociation

Disorganized Attachment

Disorganized Attachment, Development of Dissociated Self States, and a Relational Approach to Treatment

Trauma, Dissociation, and Disorganized Attachment: Three Strands of a Single Braid

From Infant Attachment Disorganization to Adult Dissociation: Relational Adaptations or Traumatic Experiences?

An attachment perspective on psychopathology

Fragmented Child: Disorganized Attachment and Dissociation

if it’s ok to ask what exactly counts as experiencing tbmc? does it include manipulation and gaslighting.. childhood torture? what exactly is mind control how does someone know if they have been through that? is childhood torture in general considered ramcoa as well or must it meet specified requirements?

Okay so we ended up getting hit by a shit ton of stuff in our life so we've been a bit less active here- sorry it took a while to answer.

First we have another post we have made discussing some of the stuff surrounding TBMC. You can find that post here.

Second, this is a religious sight that is trying to make Christianity more healthy and safe and trauma informed, not fully our cup of tea but it has an interesting page on TBMC here. (Mention it's religious and which religion because it can be triggering)

Now onto us actually answering things ourself.

what exactly counts as experiencing tbmc? does it include manipulation and gaslighting.. childhood torture?

TBMC as we have previously mentioned is known as Trauma Based or Torture Based Mind Control. Childhood torture very often is done for the purpose of mind control, in which case it would fall under TBMC. Most childhood torture is RAMCOA but not all of it falls under TBMC as TBMC is more known as the result rather than the traumatic incidents that it takes to occur the way RAMCOA generally defines the experiences.

TBMC is also not something only children can experience. The experiences of children born into it or raised with it at a young age will be different than an adult introduced to it later in life, but it is still TBMC all the same. There is no cut off age for when torture magically can stop affecting the wiring of your brain. Humans are malleable, and bad people will always know that. Governments will know that too. TBMC is rampant among governmental agencies.

All TBMC is manipulation- but not all manipulation is TBMC. TBMC is done with the goal of rewiring your brain and making you behave in very specific ways. It's meant to make you do things you would not otherwise or believe in things you would not otherwise. It is intrinsically linked to programming. Programming can be done to individual alters (induced by programmers targeting a specific self-state or state of mind or associating certain traumas with specific orders/tasks/etc to make an alter be attached to a specific behavior or task or idea), and system-wide or on the whole of the person (think strong unwavering loyalty common in many cults that refuse all evidence of being in a cult).

Gaslighting might get used within TBMC but it is not inherited to TBMC and by itself would not produce the same effects as TBMC.

what exactly is mind control how does someone know if they have been through that?

Oh man this is where it gets very tricky. There is no exact answer to what mind control is as it happens in a variety of different ways. Mind control is basically manipulation of someone's thoughts and behavior that then become intrinsic to the person and last far after they were programmed. It's more than just being made to believe strange things- it's internalizing them to such a degree that they impact your day to day life and view of the world as a whole.

Us being a decade away from the cult and having no reason to go back but having an urge even stronger than our OCD compulsions at times to go back is one type of programming we experience. We also have what presents as agoraphobia- but do not have fear of open spaces and can get groceries fine and go to work and school without issue. This is actually our self-isolation program that tells us when there is no obligation we should never interact with anyone else- there is no reason to. Unless the reason is to proselytize- and since we do not have the faith we once did, that is no longer an option. It's a deeply internalized behavior and belief that sticks even when we logically know it's bad. We are aware it is stupid and unreasonable but we physically cannot break out of it (where we are in recovery currently that is).

It's hard to tell for sure if you have it or not. One thing we had that should have been incredibly fucking obvious to us but wasn't- was that we excused the abuse one of the people in our life put us through as "he was just trying to train us". Never occurred to us that the fact he was "training" us made it worse. It was basically self-defense but not for actual defense type stuff if you catch my drift.

There can also be signs within your behavior. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate OCD and programs as well because some programs can be pushed back on the same way you can with OCD compulsions. However in our case most of our programs are just innate and incredibly difficult to stop ourselves from doing if we can at all. Realizing you have behavior that you struggle to physically stop and have no wish to engage in and do while consciously being aware you do not want to do them and this happens often- was one of the big signs to us. (And again it's a very complex issue because of different mental health concerns that could be tricky.)

is childhood torture in general considered ramcoa as well or must it meet specified requirements?

We personally consider it to fall under that because more extreme forms of abuse tend to end up with the same issues but there is debate. The most common things people know of that fall under RAMCOA is trafficking and cults.

However if you are trying to determine if something you have already known to experience counts as this term there's a few things you can do.

Does it fall under RA/Ritual abuse? It can hard to tell but I suggest just looking up basic information on what RA is conceptually (if you are in a good mental state and/or have a professional to fall back on and if possible a safety net of friends or family). RA is a very vast concept.

Did you experience TBMC or another form of mind control? If yes then automatically the label applies to you. This also goes for hypnotic mind control and substances used for mind control- as they are also important but less talked about forms of this.

Did you experienced organized abuse? This is a group partaking in abuse towards you. Whether it be mandated or the norm by something like a cult, or a criminal ring, etc. It's a bit hard to get into right now for me.

The only requirements are that you experience RA, MC, or OA. You can experience multiple- RA AND MC for example. Or just one. OA or RA. We struggle mostly with MC as we grew up in a cult that kinda worshipped the leader almost (but nobody would ever admit it even though they quote shit he says online like bible quotes). Which is why we talk about it so much, but it's not necessary to be a RAMCOA survivor.

It's okay to take time to figure out the extent of trauma you might have gone through. It's okay if you fit or don't fit any particular label. All trauma is incredibly important. There just tends to be a lot of subgroups of people with specific experiences because of how it impacts their daily life.

1. Yes! A good chunk of our sidesystems don’t 

2. HC-DID, and I said we have a brother hi counting numbers somewhere around the 400

3. Yes we have a lot of  accents, does not mean we’re fake, we just grew in a very diverse place.

4. Yes, I’m starting to stutter because of silence programming. Please please change the topic. It will only get worse 

Questions for other systems (traumagenics only)

🚨Warning: has a question mentioning MC (no details/abuse descriptions)🚨

Do you have any alters that don’t know they’re a part of a system?

If you’re polyfragmented (both C-DID and HC-DID, or just polyfrag if you prefer), do you have a high number of alters or are you medium to low on the alter count?

What’s one thing you wished people could know about your system specifically?

For systems with MC, what’s one thing that you wished people knew about programming/MC?

I’ll make a reblog answering these questions if I feel like it, if not I’ll just let y’all answer. Not that I wouldn’t do that anyways.

Hand Knitted Crime Scene Caution Tape

Plurality Resources (incomplete)

► Basic Terminology and 101 Topics: The Plural Dictionary Google Doc The Plural Association website Plural FAQ from The Plural Association Pluralpedia More Than One website - basics and causes Whispering Flowers website - firsthand experiences General alterhuman resources Plurality categories on the LGBTA Wiki headmatesfaq on Tumblr - check the side bar for links on desktop headmatesfaq basic FAQ headmatesfaq glossary of terms The origin of “endogenic” and “traumagenic” as terms

► Plurality Origins: Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) basics Endogenic Systems Carrd - basics and terms Fictives - Multiplicity and Plurality Wiki Introjects - Mulitplicity and Plurality Wiki r/Tulpas - Reddit community Creating a tulpa A Partial History of Plural Self-Advocacy Dissociative disorders in general

► Apps and other things for organization: Simply Plural app The Plural Spectrum Tool - not an app

► Please click here for all plurality resources compiled on this blog.

Please feel free to contact me to add new resource links to this post or correct any misinformation. This post will be updated with far more information as I find it. If any of these links are from sources that are against non-traumagenic systems or non-disordered systems, contact me to have the link(s) removed. Keep in mind that I can only speak from my own experience as an OSDD-1 system with no existing tulpas or fictives. ⚡

I am seriously thinking about making a big post about this

Can people stop pushing the idea that you shouldn’t share information about RAMCOA at all? Yeah, sharing detailed information about programming publicly or with people who don’t need it can be dangerous, but it’s already such a taboo topic to the point where a lot of survivors feel like they can’t even speak up about what happened to them. And they have the right to, they endured it.

If you’re saying “be careful how much you share about programming” that’s valid. I’ve seen a lot of people saying that and that makes perfect sense. But “don’t talk about RAMCOA” do people not realize that’s what many of the perpetrators of this type of abuse want? They want total silence. They go to insane lengths just to ensure survivors can’t talk about this. They thrive off secrecy. They’re protected by people’s ignorance. This is a widespread issue that requires a societal effort to put a stop to. How will that happen if people aren’t educated on the fact that this happens, at the very least?

I know a lot of people can use this info to hurt people or get some sick pleasure from hearing about the abuse. But that doesn’t take away the need for this to be heard and known about. Stop silencing survivors.