Its The Post I Requested!!!!! - Blog Posts
hi, it’s the void! i’m back. okay, regarding any metas you feel like writing. i wasn’t kidding when i said they all sounded great. i loved the timeline you did for Dick, especially because i haven’t been reading DC that long and it was great to understand how events happened and stuff, and more timelines like that would be amazing, , but i’m actually mad curious about your thoughts on how Dick and Tim are similar? like i've seen a lot about their relationship as brothers which is great but (1/2)
but now that you’ve said it, it kinda makes sense. although the only specific thing i can remember is them both insisting on going to public school. anyway, i'd love to hear your thoughts! (2/2)
I very probably will end up doing more timelines because I had fun! but unless there’s a specific request I might wait until I’m fully done with my pre-flashpoint read through. Onward to your actual question, though!!
tl;dr: Dick and Tim are both true heroes on the side of good, very smart, social and well-liked, team players, highly prone to (often unnecessary) guilt, susceptible to becoming more Batman-like in their worst moments, and able to fight against that with The Power of Friendship (i.e. trusting and relying on others).
but lets start with the reason why Tim and Dick ended up so similar in-universe, which is that out-of-universe they’re the most similar.
They’re the archetypical, “light to Batman’s darkness” type Robins.
[Dick to Alfred, in flashback: “No, it’s not like that, Alfred. I mean, I know the danger, and I really try to careful. But I also know I’m doing good, that I’m helping people. I think in a way I’m helping Bruce, too.” “How is that, sir?” “I used to think he was more real as Batman than as Bruce Wayne...but because he just can’t be some cold super-hero around me, I think Bruce is becoming more real, too. Look I know what we’re doing is important, but it’s not everything. Mom and Dad always taught me to enjoy myself. I think maybe I’m helping Bruce to sometimes enjoy himself, too.” | (Batman #438)]
(p.s. go read batman year 3, ft grieving bruce, bruce & dick & alfred Feelings, young dick grayson flashbacks, and the cameo first appearance of baby tim)
[Tim, to Bruce: “B-Batman, it’s hard for me to say this to you--but since Jason...died, everyone’s notice how you’ve...changed.” / “You need someone to make you slow down just a bit and wonder what could happen. I mean, how many times have you been hurt these past few months?” | (Batman #442)]
They’re the two who had truly long runs as Robin: post-Crisis Jason had about a year and a half, Stephanie a few months. If you include all reboots, Damian has had a decade, but I ignore everything after Flashpoint since the characterizations changed so wildly, and he only had 2 years preboot. Meanwhile, Dick was Robin for over 40 years, and Tim for 20.
They were really the only two preboot that had time to live and grow in the role of Robin. They had time to become staples of the greater universe and connect with many other characters. They had time to become long-lasting members of notable teams.
They both were introduced in the sidekick role, but soon started leading stories as main characters in their own right instead of supporting characters to Batman. Tim got his own Robin series, and then continued into his Red Robin series. Dick was the regular star of stories within batfamily anthology series—though I’m not familiar enough with the golden/silver/bronze ages to cite those off-hand, sorry—and then in the modern age got a Nightwing ongoing until he took over as Batman.
(By contrast, Jason and Damian have only really lifted to starring roles post-Flashpoint, previously having always shared billing as Robin. Post-resurrection, Jason was a sporadic guest character, usually an antagonist. Steph started as an occasional Batman guest star, then become a supporting character to Tim in Robin, and only much later became a main character once she got Batgirl. Cass did get her own Batgirl book right off the bat, but, look, out of universe and narratively Cass is so very different to the boys, and was still always very isolated from the rest of the dcu. Barbara as Oracle is the only one who had the same central status as Dick and Tim, but being neither Bruce’s kid nor a Robin, she has a completely different, far more independent role.)
tl;dr: If you read preboot comics, there really is a distinct way in which Dick and Tim are treated as fundamental main characters in the universe in comparison to all the other batkids.
i can’t believe how long this is already getting so I’ll see you under the cut
[Alfred, to Bruce: “Oh, he was sad, certainly--But also more than that. He’s changed considerably over these past horrible days. When he first came to us, I dared entertain hopes that you might, through proximity, become more like him. Bright and more optimistic. But I’m afraid exactly the opposite has occurred. I’m afraid he’s become more like you.” | (Robin #132)]
(alfred is talking about tim here, but, spoiler, imma argue that this could literally apply just as well to either dick or tim)
Those out-of-universe similarities all come together to mean Dick and Tim had to fill pretty similar roles. Dick was created in a very lighthearted era to appeal to kids and give Batman someone to talk to, and Tim was created very specifically and carefully to Not Be Jason Todd and convince readers that a kid sidekick was still reasonable even after one of them had been killed—but the outcome is the same.
They’re the good kids. The reliable ones. Sure, they sometimes fight with Batman or make the wrong choice or struggle, but those are problems they overcome instead of defining characteristics. They were the ones who could be solidly in the role of the Robin without making readers question if they really should be Robin.
As young characters who led their own stories, writers naturally leaned into making them relatable to kids*. And when they graduated, all that established characterization kept them as The Good Kids into their future identities, even as they matured.
(*I think this is super key in comparison to Damian, who is ofc a very young kid, but who pre-Flashpoint had most of his appearances in series that weren’t necessarily geared towards kids: Batman, Batman & Robin, etc. Ergo he could be violent and bloody and chop off heads, and not have to take have any kid- relatable traits or stories. Compare to Super Sons, which I haven’t read, but from what I understand is very geared towards kids and therefore tries to make Damian more kid-friendly and kid-relatable to match.)
Dick and Tim have pretty much the same skillset all non-meta, Gotham-based vigilantes have. They’re great martial artists, they flips off buildings, they’re very smart and great detectives, etc etc. Fanon tends to exaggerate any difference in skill, but honestly by the time Tim is full-grown there’s not any hugely noted gap between them. Dick is more acrobatic, but they’re both excellent fighters. Tim’s detective skill are more likely to be mentioned, but they both are great problem- and case-solvers—and Dick has solved cold cases while sick at home, or ruined mystery movies with friends by figuring it out two minutes in, etc.
[just for kicks, here’s a horribly cropped side-by-side of Ra’s calling each of them “detective” | (Red Robin #12 / Nightwing #152)]
They’re both also very empathetic and caring. This seems pretty well known for Dick, but sometimes missed for Tim, so I’ll remind here that Tim became Robin exclusively because he wanted to help Bruce and help Gotham. He’s the only bat who became a vigilante without having any preexisting personal tragedy to motivate him, because he just wanted to help that much.
Also well known for Dick but often forgotten for Tim: they’re both social, friendly, well-liked people. Dick, of course, has friends all over the place (though, imo, keeps his closest circle of friends pretty exclusive), and generally has no problems socially.
The same is pretty much true for Tim. He doesn’t have the connections across the superhero community Dick has (tbf Dick’s been around 50 years longer), but he is similarly very comfortable in social situations. He’s a confident kid, particularly once he’s been Robin for awhile. Tim swapped schools approximately 2437 times in the Robin series, and very quickly made friends at all of them:
[Tim, to random jocks: “Excuse me, guys?” “Who’re you?” “I’m Tim Drake. I’m new here and have only one friend so far, so I can’t afford to lose him. The trouble is that he’s madly in love with Darla here and dying to talk to her. Now, as we all know, the official-rules-of-guys dictate that you’d be fully justified in beating the snot out of anyone dumb enough to make a pass at your girl. So here’s the deal. Just this once, I’m willing to take the beating coming to him. I’m not suicidal enough to try fighting back, but I still suggest we go outside so that you’ve got all the room you need to do a proper job of it.” (pause) Random jocks: “Hey, you’re all right, Tim.” “You’re pretty cool. Funny, y’know?” “Besides, she really ain’t our girl. Darla don’t date nobody.” “Come on. You can buy us sodas while your bud takes his shot at her.” “Or a double bacon burger.” | (Robin #122)]
The confidence, lads.
Like I said, they’re the “good kids,” and that applies to both sides of their double lives:
As civilians, they got good grades in school (not that that separates them from the other batkids), they generally followed the most important rules, and were relatively well-behaved kids—if not sometimes considered boring. (It’s important to remember here that, as the guy who was Robin in the 40s, Dick was once the ultimate square. Even though he was Robin until he was 19, it wasn’t until he became Nightwing that he was allowed to do adult things like “be shown in bed with his girlfriend,” and it really wasn’t until the 90s that he started to shift away from being known as the conventional, straight-laced guy.)
Dick is canonically a lightweight because he barely drinks, even though he’s specifically trained to resist other drugs. Tim is regularly teased for being so very virginal. Dick and Tim are probably the people who always appoint themselves designated driver, even when they intend to drink with their friends, and there’s already an assigned DD, and they really were planning to just have fun, they swear, but listen, someone has to look out here and make sure everything is okay and be responsible and, anyway, alcohol is bad for you.
As vigilantes, they stick with the Code and they don’t kill. As far as I can tell, the no killing code has never been shown to be deeply and personally vital to them in the way it is for, e.g., Bruce and Cass. But it is important to them: something they follow stringently, try to get others to follow, and a point of horror when they (perceive themselves to) break it.
Here’s some clips after Tim got dosed with a superspeed drug and accidentally killed Lady Shiva. (“What?? Tim killed Shiva???” Yes, but don’t worry; it will literally never be mentioned again ever.)
[Tim’s narration: “Cleared her airway. No breathing. And no pulse. Okay, so this is weird. I’m trying to bring someone who’s killed so many back to life. So she can live to kill even more.” / “But if I can save one life. Even if it’s Shiva’s. Have to fight down the poison in my blood. I deliver pressure to Shiva’s heart too fast and--and I’ll have killed her twice.” | (Robin #52)]
And here’s Dick after accidentally killing the Joker in a rage:
[Tim, to Dick: “Nightwing?” “What… What have I done?” “Omigod… He’s dead.” “I…I killed him.” | (Joker: Last Laugh #6)]
[Barbara, over video chat: “Even Bruce would admit it. The world would be better off if the Joker were dead. So don’t let this destroy you.” Dick shuts off the connection. | (Nightwing #63)]
(Dick has another sorta-kill in Nightwing #93, where he doesn’t pull the trigger himself but steps aside to let someone else do it, and he has a guilt breakdown from that as well. Even though, again, the person killed was awful, and in that case there weren’t a lot of other options left.)
I probably don’t need to tell you that Lady Shiva and the Joker are horrible people and mass murderers, to the point where resuscitating them (Tim in the first case, Bruce in the second) is arguably the less moral action. But Dick and Tim both have the same reaction of horror at what they’ve done, and refuse to entertain how the world would probably be better off without said villains. Killing is wrong, and that is the only thing either of them allow themselves to think about.
Unlike the other pair of batboys, these two are inarguably, fundamentally heroes and not antiheroes. On the occasion where they’ve tried to be darker (e.g. Dick after that accessory-to-murder thing as “Crutches”/Renegade or Tim early in Red Robin) it pretty much always stems out of feeling awful, and only makes them more miserable and depressed. In both cases, they’re taking on the role as some kind of self-punishment.
[Conner, to Tim: “Wait a second. This is all a punishment, isn’t it?” “What are you talking about?” “Taking on the identity of Red Robin--The “failed” Robin. Isolating yourself. I know what guilt can do to you, Tim.” | (Adventure Comics vol. 2 #2)]
[Dick: “I let him get shot. A bullet was fired and I failed to throw myself in front of it.” // “I’m not undercover with the bad guys--I am the bad guys.” | (Nightwing #112)]
Both of them have a tendency to feel responsible for anything that goes wrong, and especially anyone who dies—whether it’s someone they had a hand in killing, someone they failed to save…
[Tim’s narration: “Dad thinks this is part of the punishment. For me it’s therapy. Just last week I was holding a kid my own age and watching him die. And I couldn’t stop it. Some hero I turned out to be.” | (Robin #47)]
...or just someone they love who got hurt:
[Roy, to Dick, just after Donna’s death: “Stop this. You’re upset, we’re all upset...But this isn’t the time to make decisions.” “When is the time? When we kill more of our friends?” “It wasn’t our fault.” “The hell it wasn’t.” “Dick, don’t act like I don’t care! Don’t pretend that this doesn’t kill me inside. But you can’t tell me that Donna would want--" “I can’t tell you what Donna would want. Nobody can because she’s dead, Roy! What do you want to do? Just strap on our guns and wait for the next thing? Wait for the next madman, or alien, or psychopath to come along so I can shove people I love into harm’s way?! How many should we kill before it seems like a bad idea?!” | (Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day #3)]
(Donna is a full hero in her own right, who makes her own decisions and definitely wasn’t shoved into anything by Dick, but there’s a guilt complex for you.)
And neither of them deal well with grief. This is more pronounced with Tim, who lost a whole bunch of extremely important people in a very short time, and reacted with things like cloning attempts, Lazarus pits, and world tour wild goose chases, but it’s true for both.
[Soon after Donna’s death, Dick sits silent and alone as his answering machine speaks: “I’m not here. Leave a message after the beep.” Roy, over the phone: “Dick, it’s Roy--pick up the phone...C’mon...Please...I know you’re there...Just pick up. Dick, we need to talk...You can’t just...Please… You can’t just leave me hanging out here. I’d rather we...y’know...try to go through this together...if you’d just let me… Please man… Okay. Fine. I’m here when you’re ready.” | (Teen Titans/Outsiders Secret Files)]
[Soon after his father’s death, Tim curls up in bed as Dick speaks through his answering machine: “Tim, it’s Dick. I know you’re there… C’mon, Tim. Pick up...Pick up… Tim, pick up...Please, kiddo...Pick up… I know you can hear me, Tim…” | (Identity Crisis #7)]
(thank you for setting up this perfect parallel, comics)
So, grief and guilt, the two biggest things that push both boys to their worst. Which brings us to our next point: So You Were A Teenage Vigilante Adopted By An Emotionally Repressed Father Figure And Now You Have Terrible Coping Methods.
When they hit these rough patches and fail to dig themselves out, Dick and Tim react pretty much the same way. They self-isolate, overwork themselves trying to control and fix everything, get overly serious and grim, and fail to take care of themselves, sometimes out a misplaced sense of guilt and sometimes simply because their own wellbeing takes second place to trying to save everyone else.
Or, in other words, at their worst, both Tim and Dick emulate Bruce.
During the (short! it was pretty short!) time Dick was a cop, he overworked to the point where he was doing virtually nothing to take care of himself or hang out with friends, too busy trying to take down the BPD as a cop and save people as a vigilante. After his dad and Stephanie (seemingly) died, Tim outright dropped out of school (under the pretense of being homeschooled by his fake uncle) because he didn’t see a point in devoting his time to anything that wasn’t The Mission anymore.
And even in good times, they each have shades of those traits! They both tend to be the most grim/serious on any team (or out-of-Gotham friend group), and are prone to secrecy and occasionally to trying to control things behind the scenes—all to the point where being teased or accused of being too much like Batman is a common sentiment from their friends.
[Donna, to Dick: “How long, Nightwing--How long have you been conducting secret investigations behind our backs?” “I’m sorry, Donna. But I needed to be sure my suspicions were correct before I--" | (Titans #99)]
[Wally, to Dick: “Okay. I tried. You’re on your own. You want to play the martyr? Go ahead. But I never thought you wind up like Bruce.” “What’s that supposed to--" | (Nightwing #63)]
If I took the time, I bet I could find like a billion examples of the Titans mocking Dick for being too Batman-like, but just take these two more serious examples.
imo, contrary to popular belief, this is actually far less prevalent for Tim, but still definitely gets its moments:
[Kon, to Tim, being retrained by Cassie: “Yeah, I’ll bet! Batman give you some tips for handling us, huh?” (Cassie: “Kon! This isn't the ti--") Tim: “What...is that...supposed to mean?” Kon: “You gonna make me spell it out for you?” Tim: “It think you’re going to have to, yes.” Cassie: “Kon, please, not here, not n--" Kon: “Hey, he wanted to hear it? He’s gonna hear it. So...Do you have files? On us? Or did you think we weren’t gonna hear about it? About how Batman had files on everyone in the JLA--his friends, his teammates--on all their weakness and how to beat them in case one of ‘em went rogue. Well? You’re his protege. You take the lead from him in everything. Have you figured out ways to take down each of us? Are you as paranoid as he is?” | (Young Justice #36)]
(man, remember that time bruce was such an untrusting bastard that he nearly destroyed not one but two different superhero teams? good times)
Whether or not they’re actually up to something shady (and in this case, Kon is wrong as it turns out), Tim and Dick both have that quietly secretive thing learned from Batman. And they both have to deal with being under Batman’s shadow; I mentioned earlier that both have fought with Bruce, and they definitely have, but I can’t think of a time they’ve ever done so publicly.
They both deal with the worry of being seen as purely an extension or lesser copy of Batman, and on a more internal level the worry of becoming like Bruce.
Dick gets more arcs that focus on the former—Possibly because, as the original Robin, this is a big out-of-universe question for his character too. How do you make the character who was Batman’s sidekick for 40 years, who was created long before the idea of sidekicks growing up ever existed, his own man and able to stand out from under the shadow of the Bat? (answer: turns out it’s actually pretty easy if he becomes wildly popular and beloved in his own right)
Tim gets more arcs that focus on the latter—possibly because, as a teenage character who was more or less in a long-form coming of age story during his time as Robin, there was still a sense that who he would become in the future wasn’t set in stone and his personality would continue to shift and grow.
But both of them ultimately want to be their own person, and much as they love him, neither of them want to become like Bruce. Or to make this parallel absolutely explicit:
[Tim’s narration: “Here’s the thing: no one can predict their own future. The best a guy can do is to look to those who’ve been much longer on the same path as him, and see what a life of walking that path has done for them. For me, those people are Bruce and Dick. You see what I’m getting at? Bruce has been on the job the longest. It’s slowly driven him mad and eaten the human part right out of him. But what about Dick? Surely a guy like him can’t dedicate himself to this line of work and keep a level head on his shoulders? I wanna yell “He can!” but I can’t forget the glimpses I’ve seen recently of the same kind of monster eating at Dick, too. Little things that, looking back now, I can remember seeing in Bruce a few years ago. Should I call them “early warning signs”? Do I dare to assume it’s a disease I can’t catch with time?” | (Robin #100)]
On the bright side, Dick and Tim aren’t Bruce. They are, as noted, both far more social people, prone to far more openness. And because becoming like Batman is always narratively portrayed as a Very Bad Thing for them, that means it’s something that they usually get to fight against and overcome to be happy, healthier people.
[Wally, to Dick: “Don’t stand there blinking at me, Grayson. What do you want, a mission statement? Fine. My mission is to keep you from turning into your guardian. Batman may be a loner, but you need a family around you.” “You’d really join another team just so I could have a social life? You’ll never last.” “Ten bucks says I stick it out longer than you do.” | (Titans #1)]
[Tim: “People...You think you know how I feel about Batman? Trust me: right now, you don’t. No, I don’t have files on you. Batman and I are different, believe it or not. I have friends. He has...associates. That’s becoming more and more clear to me… And that’s all I intend to say on the subject.” | (Young Justice #36)]
[Tim: “I realized you were playing with me. But this is me, refusing to play. Did you think I was going to run all around the city, desperately trying to save everyone all by myself? I’m not Batman. I have friends.” | (Red Robin #12)]
(i can’t believe bruce is never around to hear tim roast him like this rip)
So Dick and Tim specifically fight against those Batman-esque impulses by having close friends who they truly love, trust, and can rely on as a support system.
I can throw out lots of other little similarities between them if you like: both preferred public school as you mentioned, both orphans, both traumatized after witnessing their parent(s) death.
They both started with a complicated and not necessarily parent/child relationship with Bruce (Dick and Bruce initially having been just as likely to be referred to as brothers; Tim initially having his own living father and a relatively professional relationship with Bruce), and explicitly said Bruce wasn’t their father. They both eventually shifted in their feelings and later considered Bruce their dad.
They both still love and care deeply about their original fathers, and rarely actually refer to Bruce as “dad”. They both lived with Bruce long before being officially adopted (Dick as his “ward” and only adopted as an adult; Tim living with him temporarily while his parents were away or comatose and adopted after his original dad died).
They both were unwillingly stopped from being Robin once temporarily (Dick fired in Robin: Year One; Tim forced to quit by his dad) before later returning to the role. They were both later permanently fired from the role by the current Batman, and extremely upset about being replaced. They both are consistent and reliable parts of the bat-team, except for a single period after they were fired and spent time away (Dick with the Titans in NYC; Tim around the world looking for evidence Bruce was alive).
…and so on and so forth.
(The fanon note to end this post is that they each have a tendency to get wildly exaggerated by fans to the point of getting flaws they never had in canon—but in completely opposite directions: Dick gets flanderized into a perpetually cheerful, ever caring, lynchpin of the family; often with the entirely non-canon flaws of being stupid, oblivious, and/or overbearing; often without his more serious, workaholic, clever, or occasionally manipulative side. Tim gets flanderized into a perpetually depressed, genius-level IQ, uber-workaholic control-freak; often with the entirely non-canon flaws of being socially anxious, paranoid and untrusting, and/or entirely unwilling to take care of himself at a basic level; often without his more social, trusting, goofy, or occasionally cocky side.)
In conclusion, Dick and Tim definitely have differences and qualities unique to each of them, but they’re more similar than they are different and also I can’t believe I am writing long analyses of fictional media on tumblr dot com but it turns out i miss writing essays and have lots of Thoughts.
thank you for asking, the void.