The Charioteer - Blog Posts

“Give me to be beautiful within,” Socrates had prayed, “and for me let outward and inward things be reconciled together.” (99)

A little tribute piece to what is probably, definitely my favorite comfort novel, The Charioteer by Mary Renault.

I may be reading too much into this passage, or maybe someone's mentioned it before but I think it's so funny; it seems to me he's just describing Ralph and Andrew when talking about Hamlet and Brutus (and how he dislikes them 😭), and it seems to say a lot about how different Laurie is when we see him after Dunkirk.

"So much of the book’s cruelty (in the main characters, I wouldn’t really count like… Straike) is driven by deep shame at what they perceive as the “dark” elements of themselves, reflected outwards…” This is actually genius, and I never would’ve thought of it if you hadn’t mentioned it! Thank you! I wonder if it can be seen with even Mr. Straike: I think a huge part of displaying Straike's cruelty and hypocrisy in the book was done by nothing other than simply contrasting him with the conscientious objectors in hospital and he made it a point to be very insulting about them when Laurie is at home (but this may just be because everyone disliked them at the time).

Re Andrew’s letter though: I think he’s referencing punching Bunny. The thing he wants to kill is both his feelings for Laurie (which are, in that moment, an extension of his feelings of learning about Laurie/Ralph) and also his anger at being suddenly confronted with the truth of his emotions in quite possibly the worst way known to mankind. And I think he says he can never say what he wants to now because even if he establishes regular contact with Laurie through letters (which we aren’t even sure he does), he probably really will never allow himself to speak openly about the things he feels; he believes it’s wrong to feel this way, he might see it as temptation if Laurie looks on it favourably, etc.

‘I hope he finds a kindred spirit at the Quaker house in London.’ This is actually the perfect happy ending for him! It would be very lovely.

It's only been a little bit of time since I reread the book (maybe 2-3 weeks) but since then Andrew's letter is the one part I keep randomly thinking about. Specifically:

"The thing you want to kill is really in yourself. That is why people become cruel in war, because they are doing what I did...there is much more I should like to say, but now I shall never be able to say it. You know I shall remember you all my life.

Love,

Andrew."

I have this idea that Laurie keeps Andrew's letter in his pocket the way he kept the Phaedrus with him at all times; at the end of the book, we see it's still there and I don't think Laurie would get rid of it.

It's only been a little bit of time since I reread the book (maybe 2-3 weeks) but since then Andrew's letter is the one part I keep randomly thinking about. Specifically:

"The thing you want to kill is really in yourself. That is why people become cruel in war, because they are doing what I did...there is much more I should like to say, but now I shall never be able to say it. You know I shall remember you all my life.

Love,

Andrew."

I have this idea that Laurie keeps Andrew's letter in his pocket the way he kept the Phaedrus with him at all times; at the end of the book, we see it's still there and I don't think Laurie would get rid of it.

So I wanted to ask you a bit more about Bunny and Ralph and their ‘domestic ménage’!  I find it weird too.  It’s never really clear, they seem to speak in code, then there is the separate kettles thing, that freaked me out when I noticed it, and that weird ‘Bunny’s gone’ except that he hasn’t, and then Ralph ‘Do you feel like believing that?’  What do you think is going on there…….

Honestly, I have no idea! I was very meh the first time I read about their relationship (before the car scene, of course) because I was convinced that Laurie was just blowing it all out of proportion. It seemed to me to be a casual relationship: stuff like the separate kettles, Ralph having his own apartment (even though Bunny lives downstairs), etc. all formed this idea in my mind that they were just messing around and weren't anything really serious. Now, I don’t think that’s true anymore but I’m no more clear on the intricacies of their relationship than I was before. Ralph certainly doesn’t seem to respect Bunny and Alec seems to agree that he’s not suited to him (which Laurie reiterates through his constant questioning of how Ralph can stand him). But other than that, I’ve no idea what is going on.

I think a major reason I thought their relationship was weird is because of the fact that all the information we get of it comes from Laurie, who himself feels that way but doesn’t know enough about the situation to provide an answer as to why Ralph would be in it in the first place; he doesn’t know most of the story, is only there at the end, adores one-half of the equation while despising the other…and he’s the only one we can follow along with! It doesn’t help that most of his observations only serve to reintroduce/reinforce the same two questions constantly in his mind: 'why is Ralph with someone like this?' and ‘how can Ralph stand him?’ And that's all we get as readers! It's just Bunny being odd or painfully tone-deaf (the comments about Bim) or actually evil (the car scene+what he does to Andrew) and Laurie looking at Ralph, who he adores and has been dreaming about for years, going: 'but why though?’

I don’t have many other thoughts but I would love to hear more (real, unlike mine) theories! I’m really in the dark about Bunny generally; I feel there’s lots of stuff I didn’t pick up on regarding his character because I was too busy focusing on Laurie and Ralph. Oh, and as far as the ‘can you really believe that?’ comment, I assume it’s just that Ralph is used to such things being disbelieved. Laurie himself has a moment where he thinks they might get back together so long as no one intervenes to keep them away from one another in 48 hours (I think so anyway, I might be misremembering what he said). But anyway, thank you for the ask! I'm sorry I don't have much more to say!

I wondered about the cancelled party thing too! I thought it was plausible at least because Bunny does say something about Ralph keeping Laurie a little hidden and (I think, I don't really remember) seems annoyed by this. It's not a stretch to think he'd lie about being out for the night, only to show up when he knows Laurie is there.

That said, Laurie also thinks later that Bunny isn't so much a planner as he is someone who just takes chances when they come to him. Alec hints at this too. So, I don't really know if I'm right: the level of foresight/planning that my idea of Bunny would suggest doesn't line up with the common perception of him given by at least 2 characters...honestly, Bunny (and his relationship with Ralph) always seemed odd to me. I was half-convinced the first time I read the book that Laurie was simply misjudging the situation and they weren't as serious as he imagined. I mean, Ralph never shows any real affection for Bunny in any of their scenes together! And Bunny is very weird! Their whole relationship was so weird to me lol

That Bunny car scene

Hi there @telltaleangelina I just wanted to think a bit more about the scene with Bunny and Laurie in the car scene on the back of your ask/answer.

I think you really got to the heart of it with that line ‘the practiced inflection’.  Laurie uses his intuition a lot (sometimes without even being sure what he is picking up) and it’s just such a creepy line, indicating how Bunny seamlessly adopts that tone.  Although I suppose there is an analogue with Ralph giving Bunny ‘the straight look’ for the first time back at the flat.

It suddenly occurred to me that cars are so symbolic of male power at that time, and it evokes that horrible trope of men taking women out and expecting some kind of ‘payment’.  I wonder if Bunny is just so cynical that he assumes Laurie is paying Ralph back in kind for the lift, and decides he wants a piece of the action.  Or he thinks Ralph is being ridiculously gentlemanly about Laurie and wants to bring him down to his level.

I realised the scene provides a contrast to the earlier car scene with Ralph.  I know we love the little knee touch in the 1953 version when they are parked up at the scenic spot, but to me, she took that out for a reason in the 1959.  It shows the high level of tension (not just sexual!) between them and the way both of them are being hyper-vigilant – Ralph trying very hard to judge the moment with Laurie, and Laurie trying very hard to be respectful of the fact that Ralph has a boyfriend.  And also, Laurie sits in silence to avoid attracting Ralph’s anger when he hits the traffic.  And he is so uncomfortable with being dependent on Ralph – the number of times he tries to leave the party to get the bus, and he tries it again at Bunny’s.

I also realised that it almost doesn’t matter whether Bunny would have followed through with his threat or not.  It just conjures up the horrible thought that he is used to getting what he wants, and most of the time, people don’t stand up to him.  So perhaps this is a neat way to show Laurie’s strength of character in a crisis.

The other thing that is quite disturbing, if not surprising, though, is that Laurie then plays it down with Ralph.  Partly because he fears not being believed (a bit like Alec silently taking the blame for Bunny’s gossip for a quiet life), and partly to spare Ralph’s feelings.  I realised he would be very influenced as well by the ‘no snitch’ rule in school, where telling on another boy would be considered worse than the original offence.  But it is cowardly too.  I wonder if his anger on the staircase is partly fueled by his frustration at being put in that situation, the suggestion that Ralph is so inured to that kind of behaviour that he doesn’t even notice any more.  And in a way Ralph is responsible, because even if Bunny spiked his drink, he still chose alcohol over tea.  But Laurie is also too passive.  In the end Ralph ends it with Bunny without knowing for sure what he did.  Unless he knows because Bunny has form.  In which case why is he with someone like that?  Either way, Laurie’s horrible accusations on the staircase have the ring of truth.

And finally I can’t go without mentioning that other linked car scene – Ralph kissing Laurie on the first night at the party (very heavy hint anyway) when he is dreaming about his mother kissing him!!  And Ralph sitting there having a cigarette while he waits for Laurie to wake up is so sweet.

Hello! OK this is more an ask about a question, but you know you on the tag game when you mentioned Bunny and what happened in the car, you made me think. I'm not sure if there was actual contact, I tended to think of it as Bunny 'trying it on', but when I re-read it, it's clear Laurie is genuinely scared, and perhaps he suddenly realises he has no real idea who this guy is but he's also trying to make light of it. And then the little internal monologue is so pompous I find it hard to be sympathetic with him! But anyway, I wondered what you thought about it?

Hey! Thanks for this ask! I was debating making a post where I talked about it because it really confused me but you beat me to it with this question! When I went back to reread that scene, I didn’t expect to be so confused. I definitely agree that Laurie’s got some huge pompous lines in this one, but that wasn’t really the part that captured my attention or confused me. I was expecting the lines because I remembered reading them the first time. What I didn’t remember was getting the sense that Bunny was a real threat to Laurie. I think this is because I didn't realise how impossible the situation was?

The part that really made me think twice about Bunny and the car scene was this:

“Something primitive stirred in Laurie, as in a solitary man beset by the creatures of a swamp or forest “Oh, no,” he said. “I shouldn’t take that tone, if I were you.” This, thought Laurie, is what he doesn’t tell everyone. The practiced inflection had held many chapters of inadvertent autobiography. “You know,” he said, “Ralph’s going to wake up before long and ring the hospital to see I got back all right. If I haven’t, what do you expect me to do tomorrow? Back up your story?””

The line that caught my eye here was 'The practiced inflection had held many chapters of inadvertent autobiography.' I don't know why it did, but based on the situation as a whole, it kind of seemed to imply to me that Bunny was someone who coerced others?

So, if you think about it: here we have Bunny who puts Laurie in an impossible situation. Laurie is physically disabled, and needs to be conveyed to the hospital. They're out in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere when Bunny makes advances and is rebuffed. Angry at this, he tries to throw Laurie out of the car. Again, they're in the middle of nowhere, in the dark, and Laurie cannot walk. At this point in the story, he can barely be on his leg for an hour or two (at most) without his pain flaring up. So, there is no way Laurie can leave that car and get to the hospital safely. Only Bunny can get him there; he is entirely dependent on him. This is the situation he finds himself in. Bunny knows this, and after Laurie refuses to leave, responds saying: "I shouldn't take that tone, if I were you.' These words make clear that he knows Laurie is at his mercy, and is also warning him to be more agreeable. And it's not even just the words apparently, because Laurie says: "The practiced inflection had held many chapters of inadvertent autobiography." In other words, this tone of warning is itself practiced and reveals something about the one using it; based on everything above, I assumed it revealed that Bunny had done this all before, i.e. put others—who may not have had a Ralph to threaten him with—in similar impossible situations where the only way out would be responding favourably to his sexual advances.

I don't know if I'm reaching or reading too much into it, but this was what I got when I read it. I hope this made at least some sense. What do you think? And of course, thank you for the ask!

TC tag game Thank you for the questions and for tagging me @renaultphile Rules: Answer the questions and tag other TC fans

"He would not fucking say that" only they did and it's canon. When/who?

I don’t think I’ve read it enough to have a sense of something like this. I really disliked Laurie’s scenes with Adrian though. So it’s not so much ‘he wouldn’t say that’ as ‘I would prefer to ignore the fact that he said/did that.'

2. Did they kiss in the study? Yes/no + why you are 100% correct about this.

I think they did. The first time I read it, I didn't really wonder if something had happened, only what had happened: I didn’t know if they’d only kissed or done anything more. Later, it seemed to be confirmed by Ralph’s letter that they’d not done ‘anything more,’ I just assumed it was a kiss, and I don’t really think the dialogue following the ellipses makes much sense without anything having happened. “Now you see what I mean, Spud. It would never have done, would it? Well, goodbye.” What could Laurie have seen if there was nothing besides a hug or handshake or something? What would never have done? Why ask him to ‘come here’ at all?

3. Mandatory question about Ralph's alleged tattoos.

I really don’t think he’d have any, but if he did I think it'd probably be something nautical.

4. 53 vs 59 edition: quote a line or paragraph that is better in the edition you like the least.

I don’t know which of them I read and I definitely haven’t read another addition, so I can’t answer this. Apparently, the earlier one had more detail and dialogue, so if I haven’t I’d love to read it

5. Which TC character would feel right at home here on tumblr dot com?

Sandy, I think he'd be great on here.

6. Tag yourself at Alec's birthday party.

Laurie reading a book or Laurie just at the beginning, sitting around awkwardly, listening to people’s conversations and wondering how on earth he ended up there.

7. Post a TC meme

The first I ever saw (on the Mary Renault tag) and still the funniest to me, I think because I understand it perfectly

8. Easy to talk about who deserved better. Who deserved worse?

Straike, I hate him with a fiery passion. The man had a dog put down, not because he was sick or anything but simply because he couldn’t be bothered to care for him. Vicar? Ridiculous.

9. You can break the fourth wall (at any point in the novel) and say a single sentence to our protagonist, Laurie Odell. What do you say?

'This is not Ancient Greece, stop being weird,' at the exact moment Andrew is telling him his traumatic life-story and Laurie is preoccupied worrying about Dave. Also related to the question, but not really asked for: if I could I’d also tell Andrew he doesn’t have to feel ashamed of how he feels about Laurie. Well, more accurately, I’d give him a modern copy of ‘Quaker Faith & Practice’ and have the relevant passages highlighted, so I know he won’t miss them. It makes me very sad for both Andrew and Dave that their whole lives could've been very different (and much happier) if they were born four or five generations later.

9. What's a question you have about TC? One you haven't found an answer for yet.

I can't think of any, besides wondering how Mary Renault could've written it because it's so good. I love the use of subtext, the way she describes emotions you've felt before but never would've been able to put into words on your own. In terms of characters and story, I do have a random question about Bunny: was it supposed to be implied that he was a perpetrator of sexual assault? I got that idea when I was reading the car scene between him and Laurie but I was unsure.

I don't know who to tag! I think all of the Charioteer accounts I know have already been tagged, but if anyone hasn't and wants to, I'd love to read your response!

The TE Lawrence quote ‘Sacrifice uplifts the redeemer and casts down the bought’ – you mentioned that it might be a clue to how Alec/Ralph’s relationship ended.  I wondered what your thoughts are on this?  I can never work out if it is that Alec wants to ‘look after Ralph’ or doesn’t want Ralph to ‘look after him’.  I mean, a bit of both I’m sure, but I still wonder what it looks like? And also, how was it reading that cliffhanger ending for the first time?

So, my whole idea comes from the fact that Alec and Ralph seem somewhat similar in personality to me. I got the impression that both wanted to take some responsibility; Ralph in literally everything, and Alec in a relationship...about the T.E. Lawrence quote: full disclaimer, I haven’t read the book it's from. I'm probably way off base, but just on its own, the quote to me came across as: complex men understand that sacrifice uplifts the one who partakes in it, and casts down the one for whom it is done. The first redeems the second, but the second will always be beneath the first; he is ‘bought’ (i.e. indebted) and also ‘cast down.’ When it’s mentioned by Alec, I assumed he was referring both to himself and Ralph as being those ‘complex men’ who also 'sacrifice.’ There was also a direct mention of Sandy prior to it being brought up, so I linked the whole thing both to Alec’s relationship (and impression) of Ralph (who he says is ‘complex’ but remains innocent about it), along with his relationship to Sandy (who I assume is the one ‘bought’).

So, the way I read it was: Alec identifies himself as a ‘complex man' who understands the implication of being the one to sacrifice for another person; he identifies Ralph as such a complex man too, but seems annoyed that Ralph doesn't understand that the people for whom he sacrifices are inevitably 'cast down' and 'bought.' He maintains an innocence about things in general and this bothers Alec. Later on, Alec obviously says that Ralph never let him do anything in their relationship, so I made a leap and connected this comment to the quote and came away with a vague idea that in their relationship Ralph probably would’ve been the one who 'sacrificed’ and Alec would’ve been the one who was ‘cast down,’ i.e. Alec was expected to depend on Ralph, who took all responsibility while Alec was never allowed to fulfil any similar role; Ralph never let himself depend on Alec, or let him help in any way. This would’ve been an inherently unequal relationship and I don't think Alec would've liked it (because again, I see him as similar to Ralph in the sense he wants responsibility; he himself also says most of their arguments resulted from Ralph's inability to just let him help or do anything).

Re the cliffhanger: the first time I read it, it did a number on me…I didn’t much understand it, because I was rushing to get through and see what happened with Ralph. When I finally got to the end, and read ‘I should’ve had to come back,’ I was honestly...flabbergasted, I think is the correct word? I didn’t realise that Laurie was lying, so it seemed the sweetest thing in the world. I remember the whole day after I finished the book, I kept thinking about those words and wondering what happened! The last paragraph seemed to indicate a happy ending (I read it like three times over lol), but I hated how abrupt it all was. It wasn't until some time had passed that I actually started to liked the abruptness. Also, it really made me want to read the Phaedrus!

I completely forgot the line you mentioned about Andrew’s mind being where it should have been, but your comments about it are spot on! Andrew is too saddened by Laurie leaving, and then too distracted by refusing his demands, that he cannot think enough to come up with a way to comfort Charlot, his actual charge. It really makes the whole thing 10x sadder. I'm definitely gonna have to go back and reread that scene now, just to get a clearer sense of it all!

Re: 'the loss of that relationship feels real to me' I think is because it is a real loss. Laurie loved Andrew, and always felt their relationship to be real even when Ralph didn't, but by the end he can never see him again. It's heartbreaking.

Actually, both times I read the book, I came away happy for Laurie but also very sad and I think his relationship with Andrew (and Andrew's whole storyline) is the reason why. If you think about it, at the end of the book, Laurie is put in the exact same position Ralph was all those years ago at school: here is someone who adores him, and who refuses to believe that he's done what he's been accused of simply because he cannot fathom that he'd do it. And what does Laurie do? Exactly what Ralph did: he tells the truth, gives Andrew the Phaedrus and goes away. But what will happen to Andrew after this? We don't know and neither does Laurie. He may die in the next 5 years, but even if he doesn't, it seems hopelessly optimistic to envision a similar happy ending to Laurie's for him.

Propaganda for Andrew's moral code....

Time for a bit of Andrew love I think.

@telltaleangelina I loved your post about Ralph/Laurie’s philosophy of life compared with Andrew’s, which so resonated with me - they have a kind of heroic idealism which is very attractive, and apart from anything else it supplies most of the drama and action of the book!

But it also made me want to think more about Andrew and his motivations. So, inspired by the 'Hot Austen men' polls, here is some propaganda for Andrew. At fifteen he had to decide whether to throw in his lot with the military side of his family or the pacifist one, and it is made clear he took this decision seriously:

“I thought all around it. I thought there might conceivably even be some circumstances when I felt it was right to kill. If I knew whom I was killing and the circumstance and the nature of the responsibility. What I finally stuck at was surrendering my moral choice to men I'd never met, about whose moral standards I knew nothing whatever."

He becomes a CO not to abrogate moral responsibility but so that he can take responsibility for his actions.  Later he and Laurie have this exchange:

“One has to draw the line where one sees it oneself."

"Is that what you call the inner light?"

"If you like, yes."

So the thing that strikes me about the Charlot incident is that his principled stance is not blind faith or rigidity of thought. His main regret is that fighting with Laurie prevented him finding a solution to the problem.  He says:

“If I ... if my mind had been where it should have been, I'd have known what ought to be done, something would have come to me."

Laurie says:

"I do this kind of thing. I get steamed up about things that happen to people till I've got to do something or burst, and if it turns out to do more harm than good, hell, what's the odds, it did good to me. At school for instance. A man -- one of the boys I mean, was going to be sacked, and because I liked him I took for granted he couldn't have done it, and I was all set to have raised hell and involved a lot of other people. And all the time he'd done it after all."

Laurie admits that actually it feels good to ‘do’ something, even if the other person doesn't want it. It is easy to see that both of them have a valid point when it comes to the practicalities.  But for me, the point is that as long as they are trying to impose their will on each other, and operating from a place of ego, there is no possibility of finding another solution.  There are a hundred things they could have done to ease Charlot’s last moments if they had stopped thinking about themselves for one moment.  I think it's interesting for example that Laurie is the only person Charlot still recognises but he wants to 'outsource' comfort to someone else.

And then I realised that when Laurie is referring back to his 16 year old self getting 'steamed up' it is Ralph who points out to him that however much he might ‘want’ to ‘do’ something, it will be hurting other innocent people such as his own family (and very likely including Ralph himself).

Often, Laurie is annoyed at Ralph's inability to stand by.  The bit on the stairs at the party, for instance, and the bit where he tells Ralph "You can't eat and breathe for me, or live for me. No one can."  Pretty strong stuff to say to the man you just made passionate love to a moment ago! And let's not forget the comment about the drunk trying to mend the watch.

Sometimes I think the really sad thing is that Laurie is locked in to a different system of morality (The Phaedrus), one which means he is Andrew’s mentor and protector and Andrew is the innocent and therefore had no real moral agency. I'm not sure that means he could have or should have been with Andrew as a romantic partner, but the loss of that relationship feels real to me.

And finally....I think you have made me understand something that has always puzzled/amused me a little bit about the arguments that Laurie/Ralph have. He uses all those military analogies that seem to suggest that even while he sees that Ralph is trying to dominate him and battles with it, he is also, kind of, comfortable with it. And maybe it is that he sees himself in Ralph, he completely understands why Ralph is behaving the way he does. I always find that so touching (a little bit funny too, especially the captain shouting 'fire'!)

“In the dream there had always been a pause in which he had looked up and said, “Next time you go away, I’m going with you”; and Ralph, who hadn’t had a first name in those days, had looked down all the same and answered, “Of course.””

i have returned to the emptiness which inevitably follows reading a very very good book and having nothing to read afterwards because i can't think of anything that would be as good...(this is my not so subtle way of asking if anyone knows books similar to the charioteer and can recommend them 😭)

I hope you'll be able to post! I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Re the Alec line - - I'm taking it in the sense that Alec finally gets to do what Ralph never allowed him to do in their relationship: help him. And it's kind of sweet to see all the effort he had to go to in order to make sure Laurie straightens everything out.

A little random blurb but: I really liked Alec and Ralph's friendship. When I was reading, I got the impression they were somewhat similar in character and this was their issue before when they were together. But maybe I'm wrong here; Alec does say Ralph's capacity to shoulder responsibility is singular and he doesn't share it. I can't think of much beyond these small thoughts but seeing it all laid out made me wonder about it more.

At the end of The Charioteer, Laurie lies to Ralph but feels the lie as if it's true. There's something that must be done, and only he can do it. He accepts this, even if he lies in order to achieve it.

Before, Ralph told Laurie he hates to stand by watching while there's pain or the possibility of it, and do nothing. It's not the way he's made, he says. This is a direct contrast to Andrew, who we see literally standing, watching and doing nothing when caring for Charlot. This is not because Andrew is unkind, it is because there is right and wrong and nothing whatever in between. Ralph is not like this: people need someone, he takes on that responsibility, even if it isn't his to shoulder. He acts like God, they say. He's the opposite of Andrew in this regard. Maybe the point is that Laurie isn't like Andrew either, although he loves him. It's also not in his nature to stand and watch people suffer; this is why he felt something ought to be done in school when Ralph was being kicked out, and why he feels it at the end of the book when he realizes what Ralph is planning to do. It's why he feels the pressing demand to deceive Charlot even as he knows that, in his right mind, the man would never want it. I got the sense the first time I read the book and now the second, that Laurie is much more generally suited to Ralph, and this is why.

I don't know if this makes sense, I've not gotten much sleep. Any thoughts? Do you think this is right, wrong? Am I overthinking it?

The Andrew description is so so similar to the Ralph one. Fair hair and tanned skin obviously but there are so many details, he's even wearing grey like the school uniform. A proper post will follow but in the meantime omG

Oh, I forgot about the stream! 😭 I wish I'd taken more notice when I was going back again and tried to compare all the descriptions of them 😭

After I read the scene where Laurie recognises a bit of Andrew in an old photograph of Ralph, I went back to re-read (again) the part where Laurie meets Andrew for the first time because I was absolutely convinced there must be something in how he's described that clues you into Laurie making an unconscious connection to Ralph...only thing I came away with is that Laurie really likes blonds 😭

At the end of The Charioteer, Laurie lies to Ralph but feels the lie as if it's true. There's something that must be done, and only he can do it. He accepts this, even if he lies in order to achieve it.

Before, Ralph told Laurie he hates to stand by watching while there's pain or the possibility of it, and do nothing. It's not the way he's made, he says. This is a direct contrast to Andrew, who we see literally standing, watching and doing nothing when caring for Charlot. This is not because Andrew is unkind, it is because there is right and wrong and nothing whatever in between. Ralph is not like this: people need someone, he takes on that responsibility, even if it isn't his to shoulder. He acts like God, they say. He's the opposite of Andrew in this regard. Maybe the point is that Laurie isn't like Andrew either, although he loves him. It's also not in his nature to stand and watch people suffer; this is why he felt something ought to be done in school when Ralph was being kicked out, and why he feels it at the end of the book when he realizes what Ralph is planning to do. It's why he feels the pressing demand to deceive Charlot even as he knows that, in his right mind, the man would never want it. I got the sense the first time I read the book and now the second, that Laurie is much more generally suited to Ralph, and this is why.

I don't know if this makes sense, I've not gotten much sleep. Any thoughts? Do you think this is right, wrong? Am I overthinking it?

After I read the scene where Laurie recognises a bit of Andrew in an old photograph of Ralph, I went back to re-read (again) the part where Laurie meets Andrew for the first time because I was absolutely convinced there must be something in how he's described that clues you into Laurie making an unconscious connection to Ralph...only thing I came away with is that Laurie really likes blonds 😭

The Charioteer, Chapter 6: “Here if anywhere, he thought, was someone to whom he could release the pressure of so much uncommunicated experience, who would inevitably understand. He remembered how after Charles’s party, leaning out of his window long into the night, he had thought of Ralph; though it was already years since their brief meeting, the thought had supported him in his isolation.”

The Charioteer, Chapter 7: “Suddenly, as if the memory had been kept in storage especially for this, he saw with extraordinary vividness Ralph’s face against the background of the dismantled study. Ralph had been nineteen. And here was a grown man in wartime making such heavy weather of so little. Earlier today, during one of the current invasion rumours, Laurie had pictured an English Thermopylae...amid the last-ditch grimness of this vision there had intruded a vague exhilaration, and he realised that he had imagined Ralph beside him. So, but much more so, it was now, and with this sudden comfort he found he had got to the door, and was outside in the shelter of the corridor.”

When I came across the second of these sections, it reminded me of the first; I thought they were both very sweet.

“‘Machine’ is journalese....Inexact terms like that are part of the war psychosis. People are never machines, even when they want to be. You have to start somewhere.”

andrew raynes you will always be an anti war king to me, idc what anyone else (ralph) says you will always be famous

i agree the dave thing is so funny, especially when laurie gets distracted from Andrew’s story about his awful depressing childhood to be jealous about dave’s entire existence, and then has to spend a few mins convincing andrew he’s still interested in his story and it’s not boring 😭 that bit kills me, i don’t know why some people say Mary isn’t a funny writer! but my personal interpretation, mostly based on the end conversation with dave, is that he must give off ~vibes~, just based on when dave says “i think you’ve misunderstood things between andrew and I” and then couple that with him being in love with bertie. and we do know that laurie can pick up on vibes, because he’s actually pretty good at picking up on andrew.

I think Laurie is generally hilarious, at times intentionally, at others not! There are lots of scenes I remember laughing at as I want along 😭

I do think you're right about vibes and about them being important, and of course Laurie is good at picking them up, kind of because he has to be. Honestly, I think most characters in this book have to be vibe-masters 😭 that's what I feel like many of the conversations with meeting new characters is like: simply vibe-checks 😭 That being said, I did really like the explanation regarding some weird-misplaced idea of influence that Laurie puts on Andrew, because in the scene that makes me laugh and another before it, Andrew actually does establish that Dave influences him, the only problem is that Laurie assumes there must be something romantic behind it. Those are the vibes he was getting, and you're right, he could've just picked up on Dave and connected dots, but I think there's more to it than that. The next few scenes after this one (the hilarious Reg-seduction scene and also tea with Adrian) kind of offer some more interesting insight; in both scenes, the idea of influence is referred to and explored, with Andrew being the center of it in the former. It seems even Reg has an idea that Andrew ought to be 'positively influenced'

I don't know 😭 I have this theory developing in my head, but I don't know if it's wrong because I haven't finished the rest of the book. And this book specifically is so cool because every time you think you understand a part of it, something else happens and you have to go back and recontextualize everything 😭 regardless, thank you for sharing your interpretation with me! It really makes me think about everything I've already read, and try to see what I could've missed and need to think more about.

I completely forgot about the scene where Laurie seems pleased to be perceived as older! And while I was reading, I never even thought of the idea of molding, or Laurie thinking it's possible or trying to do it 😭 When I read Charlot's scene, I took is as the moment when Laurie finally has to confront the reality of who Andrew is and how different they really are...I will definitely be reading that scene more closely now that you mention it here!

You're definitely right that Laurie should've seen it coming with Charlot 😭 it's not as if Andrew hadn't told him who he is, but I don't think he ever had to really confront it until then. It's one thing to hear about the spine of steel, but another thing completely to rush into it headfirst at 80 miles per hour 😭

I don't understand why Laurie immediately interprets the relationship between Andrew and Dave as anything other than father/child or even just uncle/nephew. I'm rereading chapter 5, where Andrew is telling him all about his father's death and despite the fact that he clearly explains Dave is old enough to have known both his parents, Laurie is insanely jealous of Dave and thinks the whole situation gives him a 'headstart'... why?

I'm trying to think through the rest of what I know happens in the book, and the only other scene I can connect it with is the one where Laurie's sitting with Mervyn and thinks suddenly about how Sandy's friends could misinterpret the situation if they walk by. I don't know if there's supposed to be a connection or anything, but I really do not understand the vibes Laurie is getting at all 😭

I don't understand why Laurie immediately interprets the relationship between Andrew and Dave as anything other than father/child or even just uncle/nephew. I'm rereading chapter 5, where Andrew is telling him all about his father's death and despite the fact that he clearly explains Dave is old enough to have known both his parents, Laurie is insanely jealous of Dave and thinks the whole situation gives him a 'headstart'... why?

I'm trying to think through the rest of what I know happens in the book, and the only other scene I can connect it with is the one where Laurie's sitting with Mervyn and thinks suddenly about how Sandy's friends could misinterpret the situation if they walk by. I don't know if there's supposed to be a connection or anything, but I really do not understand the vibes Laurie is getting at all 😭

laurie thinking he's in love with Adrian after surgery is funny to me because the literal next thing we read after he says 'it was she all the time whom he had really wanted' is just 'her hands have nice bones'

and it's also very lackluster when you compare this random detail with how he describes Ralph's hands after he sees his injury for the first time 😭😭

Soooo.....The Charioteer? What did you think of it?

I thought it was great! I loved the use of subtext and the non-straightforward way it was written. I know from other Renault books I’ve read that she has a kind of writing style that isn’t always simple or easy, but I don’t ever remember it being this tricky. I had to go back and reread so many scenes in this one but it never bothered me. I thought it was so cool, especially the second chapter!

In terms of the characters, I loved Laurie although I didn't quite understand his relationship with his mother. But I did understand his love for both Ralph and Andrew, because I loved them both too. I think showcasing Andrew’s morals and also his moral-rigidity was an interesting angle and I really saw in him what Laurie did: a sweet young man whose whole life was devoted to notions of love, kindness and sacrifice. I understand why hitting Bunny would’ve driven him to London: he spent his whole life adhering to a very specific code of conduct, which is based on certain principles, and in a moment he betrayed them all. And through that betrayal, he discovered something about himself which drove him further away still... I don’t think Andrew will have a very easy road ahead for the foreseeable future, even if he outlives the war. I’m really happy Laurie gave him the Phaedrus and I can’t get the quote 'even the most exalted paganism is paganism nonetheless’ out of my head. I didn't dislike Dave at all, but now that I think about some of the conversation he had with Laurie and his own history, it makes me more worried about Andrew :( I loved Ralph! — he was someone Laurie could be open with completely, with whom he never had to hide. He was also just generally more suited to him. I remember when Charlot was dying, and Laurie thought ‘Ralph would understand’ after Andrew refuses to impersonate a priest: because he would! Ralph doesn’t see the world like Andrew does, he doesn’t think there is only ever wrong or right and nothing else whatever. He was a soldier, like Laurie and understands necessity. It’s true, he can be a little unkind in some places (like his annoyance with Sandy when he’s hurt himself) and also very snappish, but I think Laurie balances him out well by the end of the book. I think it's easier for him to be more vulnerable and openly kind when he's around Laurie. It was very sweet of him to come to the wedding, simply because Laurie mentioned being uncomfortable at giving his mother away. All in all, I can honestly say I was heartbroken when Laurie rejected Ralph and just as heartbroken when he accepts he will never see Andrew again. The ending made me happy though, and even though I know there’s still some years of the war left and some wrinkles in their dynamic, I envision an ultimate happy ending for Ralph and Laurie.

I'm sorry if this is a lot more than what you were asking for, but I'm so excited about this book and haven't stopped thinking about it! Honestly, I think I need to read it again to better take it in and understand it! There are lots of other elements and themes I want to revisit so I can more clearly get a grasp on their place in the story. But anyway, thanks for the question!

just finished the charioteer today and can't stop thinking about it, will probably start rereading it again today smh