Terra-fatalis - Terra Fatalis

A question about Kingdom Hearts, but can be for other stuff too. Do you think some important context or subtext is lost in the translation process from Japanese to a second language, even if it's translated to the best of a translator's ability, and if so, do you prefer a more literal translation over an official dub?

Hello! Thanks for the ask.

To answer the first question, there's different points to be made given the case by case nature of the topic. Important or simply interesting (these are not the same thing) information absolutely can be lost in the process of translation, but there's a lot of things fans need to understand:

Per discussion, is it actually lost, whether in the specific line or that of the overall context elsewhere?

Is the meaning actually *important* or imperative for understanding context [subtext]?

If lost, is it something that could've been localized creatively within the limitations of its presentation (voice acting/lip-sync, text space, etc.)?

Was it something that couldn't even be translated literally within the corresponding localized language? And/or did it not naturally flow into the writing of the actual scene itself for the given language?

Keep in mind that some interesting nuances built within a language system is really tailored for THAT language, and doesn't have to (or can't be) be transferred to another language smoothly in the production process of localization—if it's actually important, they might have to find a way, and chances are a literal translation may not even be enough to accomplish this. So to the second question—it isn't really “literal” vs localization for me, because whether one or both of these things can get the job done is circumstantial. Ultimately, what I care about most is whether what is written makes sense and can still be seen to retain what matters contextually (and sometimes, this means you can even get MORE or something more direct from a localization as opposed to “literal”). I’m using “ “ because really, you don’t want literal, for the majority of the text, it just doesn’t work that way as smoothly as people think. But I understand sometimes literal is actually “close to definition as possible” for people. (sometimes, indeed)

Anyway, if there is an issue with what's written, I know a "literal" translation doesn't always solve the inherent factors dependent upon the specific nature of the JPN language. The "literal" definition doesn't always fully capture how the Kanji is contextually used in the writing for another language. If I ever felt something was completely missed within a localization, my instinct is to first check the nature of the JPN and how it's written contextually to see how it fairs.

Of course, if it's information that isn't really based on the nature of the Kanji and how it's used, that it's something just being misunderstood in translation, then that isn't even a matter of whether it was literal or not—it was just wrong, and could've been right in any form if the text was understood (meaning, I'd take it literal or localized as long as the information is correct). In comparison to the amount of important storytelling text actually localized in video game projects, this doesn't nearly happen that often, though.

To look at Kingdom Hearts:

There have been many, many examples, especially between #1 and #2 discussed within fandom over the last 20 years. lol The majority is very miniscule and inconsequential (if even non-existent of a difference with proper understanding)—in KH3 I tend to think of some scenes between Sora and Kairi that has been discussed. @phoenix-downer has some excellent JPN/ENG comparisons of Sora and Kairi's Paopu Fruit and Light in the Darkness scenes (plus more) that serve some examples—Phoenix might be more readily able to remember some things over the years than I. There’s also this line from Xemnas about finding the Ancient Keybladers in KH3—this one can reasonably create a misunderstanding, but at the same time we don’t exactly have all the information at this point in time anyway.

One thing I do tend to think of is the scene between Aqua/Terra/Ven and the Disney Passes—where the term hogosha 保護者 (guardian, protector, patron, parent) is used in JPN, while in ENG it was written as "grown ups". There's a subtext here that has been missed by some ENG speakers. Similar to #4 (about literal translations), this is one of those cases where contextually speaking, the ENG went with what made sense for the scene and all factors corresponding to it, while still retaining something similar to the concept context-wise. As you can see based on the definition, the term hogosha is very flexible in use due to its span of multiple different words, but in its usage, it always has the connotation of something "parental". But, translating it as straight up "parent(s)" doesn't always work because of the nuances of the word. e.g. From FFXIII, Lightning is a hogosha to Serah, but this isn't to say that Lightning is literally her parent/mom—the contextual nature of hogosha tells more than this but with the same connotation. Sometimes it can be directly "parents/legal guardians", like how it's used to refer to what is essentially PTA school meetings (hogoshakai 保護者会). There's a reason why hogosha is distinct from just more direct words for parent (like oya 親 or ryoushin 両親).

This flexible nuance isn't readily and neatly packaged in a single word in ENG, however, and while, say, “guardian” [parental] can fit in some situations on its own, the connotation of parental isn’t so readily available like it is for hogosha alone. (A good example is this post I made) So, contextually there are other ways to capture it, and that may have to be with a non-literal translation. But, its meaning was missed by some ENG speaking fans, so when they hear "Aqua and Terra are like parents to Ven", they have no idea where that's coming from. Of course, some people were able to understand how this is carried contextually by the word "grown ups" and the situation of the Disney Passes—otherwise, some people completely missed that parental nuance, which would be significant of representing the relationship between Aqua/Terra to Ven.

Sometimes it isn't a localization issue, but a perception one.

With that being said, if in the case of other fandoms/series? It's all over the place. I've seen it all, between something being lost (important or just interesting [unimportant]), something being a mistranslation, or something being retained and people are honestly just trippin' because of misunderstanding things. Straight up. #4 (literal translation/context issues) happens a lot, in that case.

For example, recently I made this post and a follow up post about functionalities of JPN pronouns for (I, me) and the differences that lay there—there's also an extra layer I think I didn't include, which is that between using a specific pronoun in the form of hiragana/kanji/katakana, sometimes it's a stylistic choice as well. (Don't worry about this if you're confused lol). Point is, in this situation I also talked about how this was something that only applies for the JPN language and not necessarily others (especially ENG).

But again, a lot of this is case by case and we'd have to consider the #1-4 above, and for me, I know that to get the job done, it doesn't even have to be literal in order for this to happen.

As an extra note, fans REALLY need to understand localization, if even for SE specifically, to really talk about it efficiently. A lot don’t, and don’t care to. There is a sea of information to gather to form a perspective, and if they had this information, it’d change what they think about the “changes” a localization will make. One of the most blunt translators I can think of (Tom Slattery) gave this thought towards this very topic, and it’s just the tip of the iceberg. So I’ll leave it with this:

Vocal fans on the internet often complain about translators "changing" things in the English versions of games. This always amuses me, as we're very often working alongside the team to help name those things in the first place. For example, on Final Fantasy XIII, we were asked to help with the naming of the roles--Medic, Synergist, Ravager, and so on. We were intending to use different names in Japan and the US/EU from the start, and we (the English translators) brainstormed and proposed both sets. For the Japanese version, they needed English words that (A) sounded cool when rendered into Japanese, and (B) would be understood by non-English-speaking Japanese players, so we worked with the writers to come up with a set of consistent-sounding terms that met those criteria. For the localized version, our focus was on creating names that would have a more sci-fi feel to a native speaker's ear, and also abbreviate to three letters in a way that looked natural and made the short forms quickly and easily distinguishable from one another. We didn't "change" anything; we just generated two different sets of names for two different audiences.

Retroactive integration of the English translation into the Japanese version happens on projects quite often as well. For example, we were asked to come up with a translation for the names of the transporters in the Nautilus theme park. The Japanese name at the time was not something that really worked for us, so we went with "Nautilift." A few weeks later, that started popping up in the Japanese script. That kind of thing is always a huge compliment. It's a collaborative process. No one is going out stomping all over each other's work just for the heck of it.

"Angeal, stay back. I'll take Sephiroth alone."

"Uhhhh yeah, Genesis so you don't want to do that because that sword that he's holding is bad news you see we basically went into this spooky temple and there were a bunch of statues and monsters and purple shit and everyone started talking like a lunatic and gaslighting the hell out of me and Seph and I kept dreaming about our moms and he was acting like a huge asshole and we had a slapfight and anyway the sword is cursed but not cursed but maybe kind of cursed and Seph went apeshit getting it and had to undergo all these bullshit trials with ghosts because the sword was kinda-sorta-maybe forged from an alien meteorite and has some freaky-deeky shit behind it and Seph was meant to have it or whatever but you really don't want to fight him because I remember what a nightmare that was and I'm not going near that sword ever again be glad I never even brought up Alissa because I'm pretty sure Seph would go into convulsions and does anyone even REMEMBER what happened to Bachman but seriously Genesis don't fuck around with Seph while he's using that sword you're gonna get--"

i love it when italians argue about italian. like we don’t even know how our language really works we just roll with it

With the voice recordings underway, what do y’all think part 3 of the FF7 Remake trilogy will be called???

FFVII Remake Easter Eggs and compilation continuity - Part 6: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT: A TURKS SIDE STORY

NEW CHARACTERS

The novel introduces new characters like:

LESLIE

KYRIE

MIREILLE

MERLE

PHOTOS

In the book Evan tells Tifa about some pictures of ladies he found at Corneo’s Mansion. In the Remake indeed Corneo takes various pictures of Cloud. 

Cloud: What was that?

Don Corneo: Don’t you worry your pretty little head. Just a picture to preserve the moment! And to ensure you don’t do anything inappropriate like say “No”... 

FAMILY

Ms Folia, the teacher of the Leaf House, said she considers the kids of the orphanage as a real family. The same concept is repeated at the end of the novel when Kyrie states that she, Evan and Bits form a real family even if they’re not relatives, and Cloud confirms he feels the same about his own family (this concept was already touched also in On the way to a Smile from Tifa’s pov).

But I want the children to know that until they can stand on their own two feet that I'm here to support them, care for them, love them—that even if we're not actually related, we're still a family—a real family, in all the ways that matter. If I can do that for them, then well...then maybe I'm making this world a better place.

hi there but can you describe to what this is suppose to mean (In the RPG text, there was a method to make it easier to understand who's line by using "I", "I", "I" etc. for each character, but "There was a notational fluctuation, so I replaced it completely. There was something like "ta ~", long ago) - Kazushige Nojima. apparently people are taking Nojima's words here as saying the Eng localization and maybe the others as well for 7 remake as bad? is that really the case tho?

Yeah, I remember that. It's one of those moments I start to think that some people shouldn't comment on languages they don't know, and/or don't know how to navigate via translation/dictionaries—especially when this is combined with selfishly following their own agendas by skirting context. We know people do this. Happens all the time with source materials, or even epitexts like guidebooks or interviews. But, it's more annoying when it directly involves a writer's social media account within the drama. It's just really bad.

But let's contextualize.

Every now and then on his Twitter, when he isn't posting about his cute pets (lol), Nojima will post something related to video games/writing, and it'll also often be when you see a small part of the twitter FF7 ENG fanbase parading around his tweets with comments or likes. For instance, a tweet where he talked about leaving room for imagination and interpretation, or when talking about scenario writing. It's not necessarily a bad thing to have this interaction, though sometimes people will say weird things. You'll also find that his tweets like this usually get a good amount of attention as opposed to when he talks about his pets.

That's when we get to the tweet you're referring to, I'd reckon this being the most attention he's ever gotten for a personal tweet. Here's a decent translation, w/ some things added in w/ brackets for clarity:

RPGのテキストで、キャラごとに「ぼく」「僕」「ボク」などを使い分けることで誰の台詞か判りやすくする、なんて手法があったけど「表記ゆれがあったので僕に全置換しときました～」なんてのはわりとありました、昔。

In RPG texts, there was a technique of using different words for each character to make it easier to identify who is speaking, such as "I" [ぼく], "I" [僕], "I" [ボク], etc. However, a long time ago someone would say something like "there was inconsistency in the notation [orthographical variants], so I completely replaced them with I [僕]".

A couple of things.

At its core, this is just a comment about game development/writing. There is no "shade" (I really hate this immature perspective), there is no talk about localization. That was made up by people who don't know how to translate or navigate JPN text. What he's essentially talking about is: how there were different ways to write characters referring to themselves, but how in the past, this was averted and made consistently one way.

That's it.

As you can see, this absolutely has nothing to do with the Remake, and I would wager it also has nothing to do with the OG. This all hinges on the proposed reason for the technique—to make it easy to identify/understand whose dialogue is whose. For the Remake, this issue is nonexistent in today's age considering voice acting, and for the OG, the dialogue boxes identified who the speaker was anyway. Really, this also doesn't automatically apply to all localizations, especially ENG, because of the way the corresponding languages work. Especially in ENG, there's not a lot of natural variances for someone just saying "I" in writing. The closest thing is something more akin to an attribute to characterization (as opposed to clarification of who is speaking), like a character referring to themselves in third person instead of "I", a godly character saying "this one" when referring to themselves, or a character egregiously saying something like "me thinks". For characterization purposes, something close in the OG would be how the 5 bosses of Pagoda had different methods of speaking, which the ENG didn't follow suit apparently.

While an issue of "JPN did this but ENG didn't" does apply to, say, that situation with the 5 bosses: one, you still need to think of the context of how certain things don't directly work for every language, and two, even the example Nojima brings up doesn't exactly apply the same way the examples I mentioned or the 5 bosses do.

Which in this case, Nojima brings up the example of different ways to write what would be pronounced as "Boku" (I, me)—the hiragana ぼく, the kanji 僕, and the katakana ボク versions of the exact same word. They would be the "orthographical variants" [表記ゆれ]—and I was very tempted to translate it as the following meaning—which is simply referring to "words with the same pronunciation and meaning, but different written forms". I wrote "inconsistency in the notation" to signify how this was a situation where someone saw these orthographical variants (or fluctuations, as some translated) and wanted to change them to one, consistent thing. This....is really just a notation thing. Kana is for pronunciation + writing sake, all three of these aren't completely different words. This is different than the 5 bosses example, as the Lifestream user mentions 私 (watashi), ワシ (washi), オラ (ora), and わらわ (warawa)—those are actually all legitimately different words + pronunciations AND mean "I, me". Much more appropriate and often done in JPN fiction.

Nojima's example of 僕/ぼく/ボク ( all "Boku") is not the same, and honestly, it absolutely makes a lot of sense why someone would look at that and think....why? When the 5 bosses example would be the better approach instead imo.

Anyway, the problem with people who misunderstand this is that they're wanting to take this scenario and create a narrative that Nojima is mentioning this specific instance, that isn't even relevant for the Remake, as a means to talk bad about his fellow development team members and reference other "issues" in the Remake's localization. Hell, even look at the comments, which are all from JPN speakers, one of which is someone else who works at SE. None of which are talking about the Remake or all localizations (which literally....why would JPN speakers be doing this???)—just writing for games in general. I’m assuming this tweet gained such massive traction because of how most things ever do, but it isn’t some conspiracy in the making where he talks bad about his fellow employees.

And the funny thing is that, it absolutely can and does apply to the development for even just the JPN version, as this would happen even at the stages of which editing, proofreading, and programming these texts into the game—now, this CAN also apply at the stages of localization, but in addition to what otherwise is also for the JPN. Nojima could vary well be referring to something that happened when making the JPN version of a game long ago, NOT any of its localizations. That isn't made clear.

What is clear, however, is that Nojima isn't talking about Remake or even directly localization. This is just people reaching for their own twisted purposes, and as always, it's annoying. 

It’s just about pronunciation.

It’s just fandom being fandom. Insubordinate. And churlish.

Talk about a coincidence!

A possible connection between Aerith and Stamp (as a reference of Zack)

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BEFORE READING: This post is based on theories more than actual facts, since the true nature of Stamp hasn’t been revealed yet. I’ll provide some elements that could hint its connection with Zack but all this has to be considered as a personal opinion. If this will turn out to be all wrong, I apologize in advance.

(Link for the previous post here)

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Stamp is a new character introduced in FFVIIR. It is:

“A sweet little canine character beloved by the citizens of Midgar. A regular fixture in cartoons and movies, his face is on every corner of the city either in toy or poster form. Originally used as propaganda material during wartime.”

Most of the fans assume that this dog is a metaphor to represent Zack. The main proof for this theory is the fact that, in Crisis Core, Angeal used to compare Zack to a puppy:

“Are you Zack, the puppy? My son wrote to me once about you, zero attention span, restless as a little puppy.” - [Angeal’s mother to Zack].

This description links up very well with Stamp’s song lyrics (here).  

The biggest mistery around this character is its double design: it is shown to be a beagle during the whole game, but in the end we can see it as a terrier. 

My personal opinion is that this is a metaphor about Cloud’s fake persona. We, players, mostly play as Cloud, so we see the elements of the game through his eyes (and we never see Stamp when we are not Cloud).Cloud thinks to be a former SOLDIER because he’s overlapped his image on Zack’s. 

“Real-Stamp” (Zack) is the terrier, but we see it as a beagle (Cloud) because we see the world through his alter ego. 

At the end of the game, when Zack defeats his destiny, we can see terrier-Stamp because Cloud has no altered personality (or, at least, not yet).

So, my take is that Stamp represents Zack in both forms. 

Of course, I could be totally wrong.

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I’ll provide some comparisons to support this theory. Around Midgar we can find some posters with Stamp, and most of them can be related to actions that Zack did:

Zack encourages Cloud to work hard to become a SOLDIER.

Zack saves Mako poisoned Cloud, carrying him from Nibelheim -represented by the flames- to Midgar.

Zack took part to a mission in Icicle Inn with the Turks against Avalanche. During the mission they had to go through a cave with falling icicles. There he lost two SOLDIER friends (mabe this will have something to do with the Intergrade?). 

There’s a Stamp magazine on Tseng’s desk. The only other times we’ve ever seen his desk was to show Aerith’s letters (Crisis Core) and the dossier about Nibelheim incident, (Last Order) when the Turks were trying to save Zack from the army.

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That said, assuming I got this subject at least partly right, let’s talk about the elements that link Aerith to Stamp-Zack.

In Aerith’s childhood room, in Shinra HQ, there’s a book with Stamp and a letter in the background. I tried to translate what’s written on the cover but the picture is very blurred, so there could be mistakes, especially because I don’t speak Japanese (in bold the parts I’m rather sure to be right):

スタンプからの招待状

さえスタンプファンクラブ 「スタンププリーダー」      

Invitation from Stamp 

 Only Stamp fan club “Stamp breeder”

Definitely a strange translation. 

Anyway, the odd fact is that this book appears in Aerith’s room, of all the places of the game, and nowhere else, so I’m wondering if it is maybe meant to metaphorically hint the 89 letters Aerith wrote to Zack.

(Picture taken from Reddit)

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There’s another detail that could link Stamp-Zack with Aerith: the stars.

In both designs Stamp wears a hat/helmet decorated with stars. Stars have been often used as a military symbol around the world, and so seems to do Shinra.

All characters’ outfits have been redesigned for the Remake. On the shoulders of Aerith’s jacket we can see some decorative stars. And not common stars but military stars, normally used in army uniforms or medals. Quite an uncommon choice for the clothes of a girl strictly related with life, peace and nature (a link to an older design of her jacket without stars, meaning they were introduced purposely for the Remake). 

As a side note, her gray bracelet has the same design of the guard of the Buster sword. 

Talking about stars, also in her canon outfit to see Don Corneo she wears some accessories with star pendants (earrings, necklace, bracelets and sandals). At first it seemed to me a strange choice, as stars in FFVII are commonly related to the promise (and there were no stars in her OG red dress), but in the light of a possible connection with Stamp-Zack it really makes more sense.

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In short, I’m convinced the devs are hinting once more Aerith’s bond with Zack, even in these subtile details. I was unsure if I had to created this post, given the uncertainaties around the subject. Anyway..

..even if I’m wrong, I have to admit it is a good number of coincidences!

EDIT:

All this recalls me something...

"Aerith’s star and Cloud’s star! They show a great future!” [Cait Sith, Temple of Ancients]

...and now it turns out the stars could be related to Zack? And consequently related to Cloud because of his alter ego? What a coincidence...

Final Fantasy 7 Original VS Remake - Key art

Family gathering

FFVII Remake Easter Eggs and compilation continuity - Part 8: OG FINAL FANTASY VII

 ELEMENTS USED IN A DIFFERENT CONTEXT OR FOR A DIFFERENT PURPOSE

SAVE POINTS

The save points of the original FFVII consisted in an angled C (”check point”) floating on a crystal base. In the REmake there are no more save points but the same symbols appear on the healing benches.  

PHS

In the OG the player could use the PHS tool in the world map or at the save points to switch the party members. In the Remake there are PHS terminals in Shinra HQ that the group use to communicate and switch between two parties in Chapter 17. 

  TIFA’S PIANO

During her childhood Tifa had a piano in her bedroom. Among the many posters of the REmake there are some with the image of a keyboard, one of them indeed hung in Tifa’s bedroom.  

THE HOUSE SPECIAL

We know from the original game that Avalanche was originally founded in Cosmo Canyon. This is also the name of one of the drinks served at Seventh Heaven, Avalanche’s hideout. 

OG: Cosmo Canyon... This is where AVALANCHE was born...

Remake: Our house special: the Cosmo Canyon. 

BEST GUIDE

When Sephiroth, Zack and Cloud arrived at Nibelheim  years before, Tifa escorted them to the reactor, saying she was the best guide of the town. In the Remake too she proposes to be Cloud’s guide in the Sector 7 slums (reference more clear in the Jp version).

OG: I’m the number one guide in this town.

Remake: I know these streets better than anyone. (Jp version: I’m the best guide of the slums).

PARACHUTING

In the OG Cloud and the others parachuted themselves on Midgar from the Highwind, in order to prevent Hojo to use the Sister Ray to help Sephiroth. In the Remake Cloud, Jessie, Biggs and Wedge parachute back in Sector 7 after the mission in Chapter 4.

MUSEUM

At Gold Saucer, Dio had a personal museum with a big picture of himself. Moreover, he had also a massive gold statue at the top of the amusement park. In the Remake, the 60th floor of the Shinra building hosts a museum where there’s also a big golden statue of the President. 

VIRTUAL REALITY

Bugenhagen has a 3D holographic symulator in the Cosmo Canyon observatory, necessary for his planetology studies (Shinra machinary he received from Professor Gast). “Cosmos theatre” is a 3D virtual reality symulator where visitors can learn about the Ancients and the Promised Land. 

DA-CHAO

During Intermission Yuffie uses to eat “Da-chao beans”. Da-Chao an important water deity of Wutai and its massive statue is sculpted in the mountain overlooking village. 

WALL MARKET

In the original FFVII, the Honeybee Inn was a brothel, while in the Remake it’s a night club. Anyway, the hand massages at Madam M’s parlor are kind of allusive, especially the Luxory Course.

ARENA

The Battle Square (or Battle Arena or Colosseum) was an area of the Gold Saucer, where Cloud could entertain Dio with a match in exchange of the Keystone. In the Remake, also Corneo has a Colosseum at Wall Market.

DATES

In the OG, depending on the player’s choices, Cloud could spend a date at the Gold Saucer with Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie or Barret. A similar system exists also in the Remake and it affects a cutscene at the beginning of Chapter 14. 

SHOWMAN

During the date at the Gold Saucer, Cloud and the girl (NB: not Barret) had to take part to a stage show where they played the parts of the knight and the princess. In the Remake, in order to obtain the dress-up to infiltrate Corneo’s Mansion, he has to take part to a dance show at the Honey Bee Inn. 

THE PRINCESS 

Princess Rosa was one of the protagonists of the Gold Saucer show, played by Aerith, Tifa or Yuffie during the date. In the Remake Cloud can read a letter in the room of Jessie’s father, where Jessie announced to her parents that she obtained the part of the princess in a show at Gold Saucer. 

Jessie Raspberry as...the Princess?

FIREWORKS

There were fireworks creating a romantic atmosphere during the ride on the gondola at Gold Saucer. In the Remake, if Aerith is wearing the red dress, her appearance is accompanied by fireworks and red carpet. 

KISS

The LTD has split the fandom for ages, but the only two girls who have ever been shown kissing Cloud are Yuffie (during her GS date) and Jessie (if the player manages to end the bike minigame in Chapter 4 with HP above 80%).

DREAM

In the OG Aerith appeared in Cloud’s dream just before getting to the City of the Ancients, the place where Sephiroth killed her. In the Remake this dream is hinted in two scenes:

1) The way Aerith appeared at Cloud at the beginning of Chapter 9 recalls the way she appeared in his dream (which triggers in Cloud a vision of her death). 

2) She appears in his dreams again during her resolution scene, using gestures and words that hint at her death. 

VOICES OF THE PLANET 

Aftyer Meteor was summoned in the OG, Cloud and the others could hear the scream of the Planet from the Highwind. In the Remake, when the group faced Sephiroth at the end of the highway, the Whispers start screaming in pain and Aerith said those were the voices of the Planet.  

OG: RedXIII: Did you...hear something? - Tifa: The Planet’s scream...or Meteor? Is it this Planet? - Cloud: Hey, how do we know that this is really the Planet’s scream? - Tifa: Did you forget? Bugenhagen told us.

Remake: What you heard just now were the voices of the planet. Those born into this world. Who lived and who died. Who returned. They're howling in pain. (...) They... Their words...they don't reach him. All these moments and memories, precious and fleeting...they're like rain rolling off his back... And when they're gone, he won't cry...or shout...or anything.

CLOUD VS SEPHIROTH

In the original FFVII, after the defeat of Safer∙Sephiroth, Cloud and Sephiroth had a final mental duel. At the end of the Remake Sephiroth mentally drags Cloud to the “Edge of Creation” with a symilar dynamic.