Limbus Company - Blog Posts
i keep having thoughts
there has been a high key running theme of dehumanization directly in the group lately and i wonder if it's going to really reach a head at some point. preferably soon??? dante needs to be allowed to get angry about it.
of course it started with gregor and dante. now there have been back to back cantos with heathcliff, don quixote, and hong lu showing how it has deeply effected them to various degrees. and then the check-up intervallo being used to remind the dante and the audience, that under limbus company, the sinners don't have a choice at the end of the day. which honestly thinking about it now, was a clever placement given how hong lu is acting is canto 8. he was just told his choices don't matter when the company needs him to do something, so yeah he's going 'yay, ok!' his way through this even when asked his personal opinions. with this mind, hong lu, in theory should be the perfect employee (tm), but everyone is so fucking unsettled and/or upset because he has been like this for a majority of his life.
i think something can be said about heathcliff and hong lu in particular that even though they are away from the direct source of their abuse, similar things are still getting parroted at them and just reinforces their mindset. until well canto 6 for the most part for heathcliff. canto 8 part 3 must come through for me. i don't think limbus company is making hong lu worse but it definitely isn't making him any better so far.
canto 8 part 2 spoilers
my brain keeps forming half thoughts about how hong lu was constantly told there's no point in him trying to save anyone and be kind until he just accepted it as truth. all of his efforts just ended terribly through no fault of his own but as an impressionable child, when the main adult in your life is like that....those witnesses sure are surrendered.
vs don quixote and her goal of being a righteous fixer spreading kindness and protecting the weak and not caring if she fumbles or fails. yes canto 7 happened, but she found herself again. she knows what she wants. she's dreaming that impossible dream.
what does hong lu think when he sees her? brief flashes of jealousy mixed with admiration? intrigue? he was one of her biggest supporters in canto 7; i think he does genuinely respect her ideals. at least someone is trying.
also coming in with the steel chair of thought is dad quixote and his good intentions caused all of that in la manchaland to happen making him feel as though all his efforts were for naught because it fueled the suffering of his family. it made him loop around to going bloodfiends will never be able to change their base nature, etc etc. he too gave up.
something something if anyone was going to have a dad quixote id it would have been hong lu and i've been saying this for months.
canto 7 and 8 have shared themes going on i just can't think of the word or phrase i'm looking for right now. tentatively action vs inaction and perceived futility of effort due to personal beliefs.
on haunting
fandom: limbus company rating: t wordcount: 2.5k+ status: complete, 1/1 tags: dialogue heavy, family dynamics, emotional hurt/comfort summary:
Don Quixote experiences a setback. She speaks with her Father about it. It is a Family matter, after all. alt title: But I have my Father and my Family whom I cannot abandon, a reprise.
(ao3 link)
this is the first time i'm posting a link to my fic on tumblr, so this is part of a larger series. doesn't have to be read in order, i'm not your boss.
i had a lot of feelings about donqui's situation during the check-up intervallo, so i'm glad i can finally get them out in a coherent way. mayhaps writer's block has finally loosened its hold on me. that'd be nice.
I have so many thoughts about Cantos 6-7-8 as a matching trifecta of interweaving themes, and my one friend that's into the series just got back into it and is on canto 5. I can only hold readers in my author's notes hostage for so long, so congrats on this being my first personal post on tumblr in literal years.
Maybe I'll start using this site more than just poking around tags when I'm bored.
Anyways
Been thinking a lot about how 6-7-8 involve sinners that the most likely to be brushed aside due to surface level factors in canon and by the fandom. Now, everyone goes through some degree of being mischaracterized by people, and all the Sinners have Hidden Depths (tm), but I find these three are the most susceptible. Rodya as well but that's a whole different story entirely and she's doing it on purpose anyway. They also have the most jarring pasts to contrast how they are now, so far at least.
Like of course, hindsight 20/20 and there's only so much you can do with characters that don't want to share their past or you know don't remember about their past to share, but it's so fascinating to me. I also find these three to be the most emotionally intelligent out of everyone. I am connecting dots frantically and waving string around if you can't tell.
It was so easy to write Heathcliff off as "just one of those guys" which I can't blame anyone for because he really did not make it easy, (I love him but I'm biased about Wuthering Heights) but then the Sinners are forced with the uncomfortable truth that Heathcliff was abused and looked down on his entire life and that's why he's the way he is. Of course, he's going to snark back and get angry if you start poking at him when you're getting close to parroting the same things as his abusers.
They almost lost Don Quixote and the fact that she had to go "oh now you want to listen to my stories" was such a good moment to me. I don't think everyone brushed her aside before then, but it happened enough to make note of; it effected her. Her feelings were probably hurt! The being basically told "now you start caring when it's dire," makes me wonder if they'll start being more consciences of each other in general. Everyone saying nice things to her at the end felt so campy in a good way but also like "oh man we gotta something nice right now!!" I'm begging everyone to please care about each other. Y'all are giving me secondhand embarrassment.
Hong Lu is a different beast entirely because he doesn't want to talk about his family in depth. He plays into the naive rich kid thing well, at first anyway, so it's easy to brush him off. I can't say much about him in general because no canto yet, but I believe he is also playing a role a he wholeheartedly believes in. He too is tied to a filial piety he cannot escape perhaps (I wanted bloodfiend ID for hong lu so bad they hate me). He will just mention horrific things and go on like it's no big deal, and the conversation has moved on before anyone can call him out on it. Him deciding to be the most candid with Rodya was definitely a choice; I like it. Whoever decides to call him out on his horrific upbringing one day, I wish you luck. I do wonder if that's going to happen in one of the Intervallos because he cannot keep getting away with this; he probably thinks he can because no one has asked him to talk about it. Hit em with the "oh I thought you never cared enough to ask" Hong Lu, I dare you.
Also interesting how we nearly lost Heathcliff and Don Quixote in different ways. Would love if the same happened to Hong Lu. I like the drama.
If Canto 8 ends up dealing with themes of change and memory well, that'd be a win for me.
This got away from me, but thumbs up. I swear I can be coherent.
my retelling of my fave part of the limbus chicken event
could the apple in Rose Hunter's MD art be Golden Apple, without it's lying sheen, as well? Or perhaps, Golden Apple is the one that couldn't/wouldn't actually grow a full body and move, instead of just rotting away (with gluttony from being too busy lying for survival) Also, sort of hash collisions with Eris' Apple of Discord - Faust/runaway being a point of contention. Golden/False Apple is weak to sloth, Greg's Legerdemain is weak to wrath and sloth. Also, from wikipedia: "Recurring themes depict a hero retrieving the golden apples hidden or stolen by a monstrous antagonist." - So Gesellschaft/Jia familiy OR Limbus Company. At the same time. Plus, is Rose Hunter in this context the 'hero' or 'abductor'?
the other EGO that are both victims and victimizers are all Hex Nails
Verg's flow might link to Heraclitus' "Panta rhei", that everything flows like a river, and their combined flows make up the flow of events, and one cannot step into the same one twice. That is to say, not a River itself but still sharing some of it's traits for purposes of explaining Rivers further (can you drink Verg's driving assistant? no)
Regarding Hong Lu's Lasso EGO. The abno of Rose Hunter in its MD event actually has two 'parts', of the apple and the hunter. Given how he shares this one with Faust of all people, I do think it may be referencing how they are both the one forcing the story to go on and the one being forced to go along with it. This is about Hong Lu I swear its just the more you dig the more he somewhat parallels her. One vs two blue eyes I guess.
For Faust this is via the Gesellschaft. Her as the apple in the way she must bend to the will of the collective Faust as one with a defined role to play. And as the hunter with how she - for the sake of someone else just the abno has its 'client' (there's a few who could fit this description, like Limbus Company as a whole, whomever is financing the whole operation, the Gesellschaft again) - ensures via various methods like keeping certain things from the sinners that things go according to plan.
Her passive is 'sprawling lasso' is possibly a reference to just how many she has, must, encircle for things to keep going. Plus this EGO is Fatal to Wrath and Gloom. This Wrath as her weakness ties into how this is the first time her voiceline, for corrosion, has expressed proper anger and desperation in her voice as far as I remeber. And Gloom I don't quite have a real reason for, perhaps her lament at not doing things of her own will? At being ensared as all others were?
But to loop lasso it back to Hong Lu, for one his awakening voiceline says to 'run along the flow' which has been causing me normal reactions for several weeks now. Regardless, this does tie into a mini theory of mine that the 'flow' followed by Vergillius is in fact one of the subterranean rivers, though I don't have the mythological knowledge to try and pinpoint which one.
And if we do take the stretch of a river = the flow then it connects to what Xichun was doing in Canto 7 and is yet another reference to water, just like in his base ego and in his promo image. This EGO is also weak to Gloom, funnily enough. Sloth too, though I have never had solid thoughts on that sin past it representing acceptance of sorts, typically to a status quo that hurts them. The corrosion line is presumably a reference to him probably just running away from his family the first chance he got, which was probably Faust.
Onto my thoughts on the illustrations, which was meant to be a minor note but we all know how these go. The thorns in Faust’s EGO illust are thinner and look more like rose branches, with one notably going over her leg as she looks up, seemingly about to get on the horse.
Whilst Hong Lu's has much thicker brambles around the edges - though the rose branches do appear near the bottom - striking me as similar to barbed wire, though thicker than in the base EGO illusts (speaking of, in his the wire seems much fuzzier than say, Yi Sang's). He's already saddled the horse and is looking down(?) At something that has already been entangled in thorns, the abno looking over him and who/what has been ensnared in a way that reminds me of judgement.
Ensnared itself, mind, seemingly lacking an arm, having another mangled and literally no legs to speak of, and no rose on its scarf. A drastic departure to how it was in Faust’s EGO, laying traps on the ground with all its limbs freed and intact, with a sunray to its side and a rose placed neatly upon itself, much more alike its MD self. Hong Lu's awakening is not lacking in the scarf rose, though.
Other rapid-fire thoughts: (corrosion) the rose petals on the horses look like it's bleeding as if being slashed from the stomach. (corrosion) Faust still has the reigns and very much uses them which provides her a degree of separation and control over this. Hong Lu does not. Most notable in both of their hurt sprites, Faust’s horse stands on its hind legs on her (or the Gesellschaft's, depending on how you think on it) command, Hong Lu's horse wants to run away and it turning to do so. (corrosion) Hong Lu's noose/lasso arms both have 2 loops each, unlike the one round his neck that has 3. Faust has red laces.
To close this off: I have been switching between their lasso sprites on the wiki and have one question: is Hong Lu smaller on his horse or had my brain made that up, thank you.
Hilarious thing to see before scrolling down and seeing all of this. Anyway. Let's pick this apart a little.
First things - the apple might not actually be a part of the Abnormality itself.
We know from Ebony Queen's Apple's Observation Log that Abnormalities that are conceptually connected through what they represent are in some way able to be aware of each other's existence - Ebony Queen being aware of 'Snow White', aka LobCorp's Snow White's Apple.
Considering that Rose Hunter is seemingly likely connected to the same fable of Snow White as Ebony Queen's Apple and Snow White's Apple are, specifically in that he represents the huntsman sent to kill Snow White on the Queen's orders, and that the way Rose Hunter describes the apple perfectly matches Snow White's Apple ("an apple that will become a princess, not knowing its rightful place"), it's possible that the apple in question *is* just straight up Snow White's Apple, or a representation of it.
I do agree that it's important to keep it in mind when interpreting Lasso, but I believe it's pretty clear that the apple itself might not inherently be a part of Rose Hunter itself.
After all, Lasso isn't the first E.G.O we've seen where the Sinner is shown to be both the victim and the perpetrator. See AEDD and Capote as the major stars of this trend.
I don't have much to comment on regarding your interpretation of Lasso for Faust - I think that works pretty well with what we know. Faust has to follow what the Gesselschaft and Limbus Company tell her to do, and she herself is responsible for keeping the Sinners on track - keeping them ensnared and following the predetermined path of their stories.
I'll touch upon the points you bring up with regards to Sin Weaknesses (and also bring up Sin Resource Costs, which I believe are a bit more important to E.G.O) a bit later.
Because, here's the thing about the Flow Vergilius talks about - we already kinda know what it is. We see it in Leviathan Book 16.
Vergilius's narration describes the Flow as a "shadow hovering over his back". A sort of insight, or pressure that drives him to make specific choices or move in a specific direction.
He also explains how the Flow isn't one singular force - in fact, he explicitly mentions seeing at least two Flows during this chapter. One brightly colored but slow moving Flow that he could see ahead (which he feels would lead him to actually changing the City), and one darker but faster moving Flow that clung to his back. Every time he tries to avoid following the bright Flow, the shadowy Flow always leads him to ruin, to a point where he's inevitably forced to come back to the bright Flow, as all shadows naturally come from light.
It reminds me a lot of "Gravity" from JJBA, in a way. A supernatural force that drives extraordinary people towards each other and towards their inevitable fates, and every attempt to counteract it ends up making things worse for them when it finally catches up to them.
It's also, like, Heavily implied that Carmen is in some way directly involved with what direction the bright Flow takes, as there's an implication that it's trying to direct Vergilius to his inevitable meeting with Carmen that happens in Book 18, considering how much her trying to get Vergilius to distort is telling him how it would give him the ability to change the world to how he sees fit, matching what he believed the bright Flow was leading him towards.
So like. Flow isn't exactly directly related to the Rivers. But it's also not not related, considering the Carmen -> Light -> Cogito -> Rivers chain.
I don't think the "flow" Hong Lu is referring to is the exact same Flow that Vergilius can see and talks about, at least not entirely. I believe it's also meant to be a reflection of the reason why he's initially willing to follow his story, similarly to how Faust's awakening line does for her.
While Faust wholeheartedly believes that following the story laid out before her and the Sinners is the "correct" thing to do, Hong Lu simply follows along because he just Goes Along With Whatever He's Told. He figuratively goes with the flow, just agrees and follows until things turn out okay in the end. To quote one of his Base Identity's voice lines: "When you’re distraught, simply remember that life goes on even if what you’re doing now doesn’t work out. Then, you’ll be free of worries." As long as he just keeps moving forward, things will be fine in the end.
So, if the Awakening lines are a reflection of why Faust and Hong Lu would feel like they should follow along the path their story is taking, then I believe the Corrosion is a reflection of the "punishment" that awaits them if they are to stray from it. To quote Rose Hunter's MD event, "Ah... If, however, the course was derailed by your actions, you will be held accountable."
Hong Lu's Corrosion line here is the easier one to read - it's meant to be a reflection of his Family's reaction when they catch up to him after he runs away. Outright calling out that he ran away, calling him a fugitive, and the very clear threat of punishment.
For Faust it's actually a lot more interesting, because she clearly brings up the apple and the idea that whoever she caught is hiding it, rather than implying that whoever she caught is the one she was looking for. Perhaps because that's a reflection of how Faust will disobey the Gesselschaft. While Hong Lu disobeys his fate by running away from his Family, Faust would disobey her fate by hiding something from the Gesselschaft. A Golden Bough, perhaps? Instead of bringing one back to the Company, she could keep it hidden for herself, effectively disobeying her orders and the path she was put on. And an act like that would Anger Them Severely.
The thing you point out about the differences in how the Rose Hunter itself is depicted is fascinating. The one depicted in Faust's illustration seems like a direct parallel to how Faust has acted towards Sinners - she's been trapping them with Limbus Company, using their own wishes as bait and the contracts they sign as the snares.
But then there's Hong Lu's Rose Hunter, itself trapped by the snares and mangled to the point it seems there's only half of it clearly there. Half destroyed... I don't have an exact thought in my head regarding that, but you could definitely interpret it with a Two in One angle. How whoever is resonating with Rose Hunter is only Half There, and how that half is inherently trapped within themself, as the vines ensnaring it are also its own snares. Hong Lu is, in part, trapping himself, specifically Baoyu and Daiyu are unwillingly keeping each other trapped by the circumstance of their current situation.
Now. Let's talk Sin Resistances. I'm going to be using the names for the Floor Theme Packs based around the relevant Sin Weaknesses as a base here, since that's the closest thing we have to a canon confirmation of what the Resistances could mean.
The Gloom-weak floor is called Emotional Flood, the Sloth-weak floor is called Emotional Indolence, and the Wrath-weak floor is called Emotional Repression.
Both Lassos being Gloom weak could imply that whatever experiences Hong Lu and Faust have to recall to use it are heavily emotionally charged, making them susceptible to "Flooding" with negative feelings. It could be a reflection of the anxiety it causes both of them to think about - after all a major part of Rose Hunter is the punishment for not following one's path. Having to actively keep those consequences in mind to use the E.G.O would likely leave them shaken up and weak to such negative reminders.
Indolence means the avoidance of exertion or activity, and it's a close synonym to laziness. Hong Lu's Lasso being Sloth weak could reflect how emotionally numb recalling the relevant experiences leaves him. For him, following the path of the story is all about simply letting things happen and not reacting, just trying to reach the end. He's forced to become avoidant of emotional reactions through being too "lazy" to react. It's not like trying to say anything would change things for him, so why even bother trying? He'll reach the end one way or another. And so, being given even more reasons to not care and become more numb hurts all the more, ridding him of whatever little resolve he might have been holding onto.
As such, Faust's Lasso being weak to Wrath is made all the more interesting - it implies there's a level of intense emotion that the experiences bring out within her that she feels the need to repress and hide. This is different to Hong Lu's Sloth weakness, in that while Hong Lu is just straight up numb and passively avoiding feeling anything, Faust is very much feeling some sort of strong frustration that she has to actively silence. Thus it makes it far more painful to her when she's given more reasons to be annoyed - she's already struggling to keep it contained. Something about having to follow her path leaves her deeply frustrated in a way she feels she cannot let herself express, likely due to the consequences of complaining about it.
I also want to make a quick note on the Sin Resources needed to use the E.G.O, specifically the ones that differ between the two.
While both Lassos require Gluttony and Lust, Faust's Lasso requires Envy, while Hong Lu's requires Pride. This, I think, is actually reflected in their Awakening lines and thus the attitudes they have.
Faust sees following the path as something "correct", as something "right". Her own feelings and thoughts don't matter because the opinion of the story she's following is more important than hers. She's expressing Inferiority - aka, Envy.
On the other hand Hong Lu follows the path because it's something he himself believes to be the best option. He doesn't think there are better options, so he just ignores all the shit he has to go through along the way because in the end, he'll be fine. A very Pride thing to believe.
And yes, Hong Lu for whatever reason is notably smaller on the horse in the awakening sprite. No I don't know why either. It honestly might have been an oversight LMAO.
two in one theory... i am listening very intently if you ever feel up to share it!!
Alright, so this is gonna be... as close to an Abridged explanation of the theory as I can make, because if I went off on everything about it I would end up writing a whole dissertation or five hour video essay script on this shit.
There are gonna be three main sections to this post - Hong Lu's Daiyuisms, Hong Lu's Themes of Identity and how that connects to the concept of Two in One, and the Daiyu-Baoyu theory itself.
Strap in folks.
Hong Lu's Daiyuisms
If you know anything about my theories in the earlier days of Limbus, you might know that I'm one of the very few people who was convinced Hong Lu is actually Daiyu, due to some evidence I found personally compelling. This has not changed, as we've only gotten just as much extra evidence to this as we have to him being Baoyu. So let me just speedrun through some of these points.
The Fucking Jade Eye
Ok hear me out. This is maybe the least important piece of evidence but I can never stop thinking about it. Hong Lu's jade eye? Not actually fully blue! If you look closely on most of his sprites, you can see that he actually has sectoral heterochromia, meaning his jade eye is both blue and black.
Daiyu's name, quite literally, translates to blue-black jade.
Now, you could claim that this is merely meant to be an easter egg reference to her, but... is that really Project Moon's style? After all, when people speculated on Don Quixote being Sancho or a Bloodfiend partially based on her appearance all the way back since near launch, they turned out to be right.
Hong Lu's Father
As of now, there is only one instance of Hong Lu referencing his Father in Limbus, and it's a voiceline from his Base Identity:
Now, if you know anything about DOTRC, this should already be raising some flags, because if Hong Lu was just Baoyu, he would not fucking talk like that about his Father.
In the book, Baoyu is consistently shown to be afraid of his Father, for a good reason mind you, as he's his main abuser. Baoyu would not be looking forward to introducing his friends to that man.
Even if Hong Lu was trying to downplay the abuse he's recieved, this would still not fit his pattern of behavior. When topics that genuinely bother Hong Lu come up, such as what could make him distort or how rich people would enjoy gifts made of humans, he immediately pivots and tries to avoid the topic at all cost. He would not bring up his main abuser in such a lighthearted manner, he would avoid bringing him up at all cost.
However, there is a character in DOTRC which does in fact have a more positive relationship to her Father, and would likely be the one with an opinion such as that - Daiyu. Daiyu loves her Father, and when he dies she completely disappears from the story for a bit to attend his funeral. If there was anyone who would be excited to introduce their friends to their Father, it'd be Daiyu.
Lasso Hong Lu's Corrosion
I made a whole seperate post about this, but I might as well mention it here as well for the sake of completion. The design choices made for Hong Lu which are missing for Faust are very, very Daiyu-coded.
For one, not only does Hong Lu completely turn into a flower, unlike Faust, his horse also gains a flower in its mouth. For those whose knowledge of DOTRC is zero to none, Daiyu is a reincarnation of a Flower given sentience due to being watered by the Jade. I don't think I have to be the one to connect the dots between those two pieces of info for you.
The second is how the halters become a noose for Hong Lu. This, too, is a very Daiyu thing - Rose Hunter as an Abnormality represents the inability to escape one's fate, and Daiyu's fate is to die - the Jia Family arranging a marriage between Baoyu and Baochai leads to Daiyu falling deathly ill, which in itself could be considered a part of her repaying her Debt of Tears - the debt she swore to repay to the Jade/Baoyu when she was still a Flower.
The hilarity of the fact that this E.G.O came out in the same update as Hong Lu being called Baoyu in-story is not lost on me.
Rose Sign Abnormality Log
The third Log for Rose Sign ends in a very peculiar way.
There's multiple ways one can tie Hong Lu's odd reluctance to talk about flowers and the petals. One is the obvious "he's being reminded of Daiyu because she was a Flower" connection, but there's another one.
One of the most commonly potrayed images of Daiyu relates to a scene in DOTRC where she buries fallen flower petals, weeping for and lamenting the mortality of the flowers and herself. Hong Lu's reaction here to his fellow Sinners being reduced to nothing but petals upon Rose Sign's death feels like a notable parallel to Daiyu's flower burial scene.
Like literally everything about Kurokumo Hong Lu
The title for this is a bit of an exaggeration, but at the same time. I'm serious. Kurokumo Hong Lu is perhaps the most Daiyu Identity out of all the Hong Lu Identities we have, and the way he is designed to stand out among them further makes me go insane.
Kurokumo Hong Lu's most defining trait is his attitude - he often complains about his position and how authority treats him, though he doesn't really act out against them in any major way outside of making snarky or sarcastic remarks.
This is, frankly, an extremely Daiyu thing to do. Daiyu is one of the few characters who audibly complains about her treatment in the household. For example she complains about not being given as many opportunities to show off her poetry skills as her male peers are, and she recognises how, when all the girls in the family are given flowers, she's the last one to recieve them and thus is stripped of the ability to pick, being only given the leftovers.
Then there's the whole. Everything about Kurokumo Hong Lu's visual design. Because once you realize just how Daiyu-like the Identity is, you realize just how weird he is compared to other Hong Lu Identities. I mean just look how he compares to his other Identities.
He's the only Hong Lu Identity with a blue tint to his hair in the combat sprite rather than the usual purple.
He's the only Hong Lu Identity whose hairtie is a ribbon rather than a jade ring (Liu Hong Lu technically has the ribbon in his post-uptie art, but he doesn't have it in his combat sprite so I'm not counting him).
He's the only Hong Lu Identity to not be smiling in his combat sprites.
And he's the only Hong Lu Identity (and one of only four Identities in the game) whose Idle sprite has its body facing away from the opponent rather than facing towards them.
All of those combine to make him stand out like a sore thumb in a Hong Lu Identity lineup in a way that makes it feel intentional, especially since he's also the only Hong Lu Identity with that kind of notable attitude towards authority. Other Hong Lu Identities are either obedient, don't express any opinion, or just straight up are the authority.
The Baoyu reveal is framed in a very weird way
This is, admittedly, less of a Daiyuism and more of a not-Baoyuism, but I thought it'd be important to mention nonetheless.
There are a lot of things about Canto 7's reveal of Hong Lu's name being Baoyu that are very strange, especially compared to how the Canto frames Don Quixote's own reveal of actually being Sancho.
For one, the timing itself - why is such an important piece of info being revealed so early? Again, compare to Donqui - she was revealed to be a Bloodfiend in the Intervallo right before Canto 7, and the Sancho reveal only came in the second half of the Canto.
For two, the framing - Donqui's reveals are treated as what they are, Major Reveals. The Baoyu reveal on the other hand happens in a single off-handed line, with nobody reacting to it in any way. Neither Hong Lu nor the other Sinners seem to hear it after all.
And mind you, it's not like Limbus is opposed to giving us important information in off-handed lines - far from it in fact. Project Moon loves shoving little bits of foreshadowing and reveals you don't realize are reveals until way later in these kinds of off-handed lines. But the way those lines are treated is still very different to how the Baoyu reveal is treated.
Usually, when there's foreshadowing in off-handed lines, it's usually either vague enough to be something a character could say regardless of context (see Yi Sang getting hung up on the Sedatives bit in Canto 2 or Ishmael's comment about Syndicates pretending to be Families foreshadowing her own history with the Middle via Queequeg) or something that is in the middle of a scene that distracts from what is actually being said (like Hong Lu's distortion foreshadowing being in the middle of an important infodump or most of everything in Canto 2 being surrounded by a comedic tone).
None of this is present for the Baoyu reveal. There's nothing to distract you from this information, as the scene is already focused on discussing Hong Lu, meaning you're already likely to be paying attention to what is being said about him. There's also no vagueness about it, there's no way you can brush it off since not only are Wei and Xichun newly introduced characters, but it's a whole ass clearcut namedrop.
The only way I can justify that reveal being there in the form it takes is that it in itself is the distraction. Think about it. Didn't I point it out earlier that this reveal came in the same update as the E.G.O with an extremely Daiyu-coded corrosion design? Wouldn't it make sense for that reveal to be there to lower your guard, make you think you resolved that mystery, only to later on reveal it wasn't the whole story after all?
Hong Lu's Themes of Identity
So this section is a bit more vague than the Daiyuism section, because Hong Lu is the type of guy to just Say Shit all the time. It's basically just. Anything that I find relevant to the idea of Hong Lu's Identity being more complex than him just being a random guy using a pseudonym, with some (but maybe not all) of them directly tying to the idea of Two in One.
"Which one is the real you?"
There are currently two seperate scenes where Hong Lu muses on the idea of someone's identity being in some way vague or obscured.
Is Dante the person or the clock? Is the dreamer the one in the dream or the one who wakes from it? Which you is the real you? Does it even matter if that you will flutter away in the end?
This idea of there being one true self. That even if there are two, there is only one of them that is actually you. Curious, right?
Face-changing dance
During the Canto 2 scene where everyone gives their reasons for whether or not they'd be a good pick for being the one to dance, Hong Lu says this.
Bian lian is a kind of dance literally translated as "face-changing". It involves rapid changes between various masks and make-up to represent different emotions or characters.
Now, it's no secret that Hong Lu is a great actor, as we see in Canto 4, and Canto 7 shows how the comparison to theatre and actors can be used to symbolize one's performance of identity, as it does for Sancho and her Don Quixote persona.
Mind you, this reveal comes in the same scene as Sinclair's dance invoking the image of a bonfire burning all through the night according to the Mariachis, a clear foreshadowing to Canto 3 and the Literal burning down of Sinclair's home.
Hong Lu knowing bian lian could be further foreshadowing to his own skills in deception, and how he too is a sort of actor, not unlike Don Quixote. On the other hand however, it could also be a more literal foreshadowing, that he (Baoyu) Quite Literally changed his face. We won't know until Canto 8, but it is an option you know.
The HamHamPangPang dish(es)
For those who don't know, here is a list of the Sinner-themed dishes that were available at HamHamPangPang.
Now, chances are, not all of them have deep meanings. I don't think there's much of a deep meaning to Heathcliff and Ishmael's dishes, I think PJM just legit don't know much about British/American cuisine so they just picked something recogniseable.
However, not all of them are meaningless picks either. Ryoshu, likely a mother, has a meal literally called "parent-and-child donburi". Don Quixote, a Bloodfiend, has a garlic-based dish. These were clearly done on purpose.
So, what does it say that Hong Lu's dish is actually two different dishes? That he's the only one whose dish is two different dishes? And it's not like the two are in some way inherently connected, since they're of completely different cuisines. Japchae is a Korean dish, not Chinese like the Mandarin rolls.
And just in case you weren't convinced that Hong Lu's choice of dishes is purposeful - another name for Mandarin rolls is flower buns, and one of the special occasions japchae is commonly served for is weddings. If you had read through the Daiyuisms section and somehow have no idea what the significance of that is, I don't know what to tell you.
The Daiyu-Baoyu Theory (finally)
So. I gave some evidence for why I think Hong Lu could still be Daiyu despite being revealed as Baoyu. I gave some evidence for why I think Hong Lu could be a Two in One deal, or that at the very least there's something more complex going on with his identity. But let's discuss the theory itself, how it would recontextualize certain things, and why I think it's an extremely fitting an thematically resonant direction for Hong Lu's Canto to go in.
The Theory
Here's what I speculate is going on.
Daiyu, just like in DOTRC, is someone who was taken in into the Jia Household rather than born in it, and who strongly connected with Baoyu upon meeting him. The two would end up forming a bond strong enough that they would be willing to die for one another (or, if they're in particularly argumentative moods, to kill themselves just to force the other to have to live a long life grieving over them - this is an actual argument they have in DOTRC and I pray to god this is adapted into Limbus because it's too fucking funny).
At some point, Baoyu either dies or is brought to near death, likely through the same circumstances as in DOTRC - being beaten by his Father. To save him, his memories and consciousness would be transferred to his eye, a process not dissimilar to the one Xichun brings up in Canto 7, and implanted into Daiyu's body, causing them to become a vessel for Baoyu. This would be how Hong Lu as he is now is created.
All of the above is the main basis for this theory. Everything else that I might speculate about, such as the exact nature of the two's relationship, Daiyu's more exact background and personality, how their pre-reincarnation lives could be adapted - all of those are things that are purely speculative and ones that I don't really expect to be actually fulfilled. The only bits that I am sure are likely to be true is what I laid out above.
So... what does it all mean for the future? I'm glad you asked!
The Recontextualization
Here's a collection of just a couple of things that Hong Lu has said or is depicted as that would be heavily recontextualized if this theory ends up being true.
Hong Lu surviving despite claiming he didn't fight back when his siblings first tried to kill him: With the context that he used to be two seperate people, the answer to how he survived is made very simple. Baoyu is the one who wasn't fighting back. Daiyu, however, could have still protected him in turn.
The red ribbon on Hong Lu's weapon: There is only one other Sinner who has a similar decoration on their weapon - Ryoshu, who also has a red ribbon on her sword, which could be easily connected to Yuzuki and her death. With the context of Hong Lu being Baoyu occupying Daiyu's body and thus effectively rendering their self non-existent, the red ribbon could be a parallel symbol - a symbol of Daiyu and their 'death'.
How Hong Lu treats his weapon in his base E.G.O: The way Hong Lu holds his weapon in the illustration is more like he's cradling another person. This could be a representation of how he feels about Daiyu's situation. Likewise, in the attack animation, he's not really attacking with the weapon itself, is he? He's simply using it to direct a ribbon (which in itself is missing in the illustration), the part that is actually the attack. If the weapon in the base E.G.O represents Daiyu, this could be a parallel to how Baoyu feels like he's merely directing Daiyu's body to attack, rather than being the one actually attacking.
The duality of Hong Lu IDs: There is a notable pattern among Hong Lu IDs, and that is the focus on his attitude to violence. When he's in a situation where he's obedient towards his Family, he's either uninterested in violence, bored of it, or otherwise given no other choice but to use it as a reprieve from boredom. However, when he's in a situation where he's disconnected from his Family or otherwise questioning the status quo, he's shown to not only be much more aggressive and violent, but to outright enjoy it. With the context of Hong Lu being composed of two people, this duality could represent each of his components - the obedient and violence-averse being more Baoyu-like, while the questioning and violence-favoring being more Daiyu-like.
So, there's a bunch of stuff that would be given new meaning under the premise of this theory being true. But now, what about the future? What would this theory mean for the themes and ending of Canto 8?
The Resolution
I believe this is how the Daiyu-Baoyu theory will affect Canto 8.
At some point, whether before or during the Canto, it will be revealed that Hong Lu is both Daiyu and Baoyu. There will be an attempt to seperate the two, perhaps to implant Baoyu into a more fitting, more Jia Family-approved Vessel. Perhaps because the 'arranged marriage' from DOTRC could be adapted into something more... let's say Fear and Hunger kind of marriage rather than traditional marriage.
This will leave Hong Lu to be returned to their state as Daiyu, who will be revealed to be a very different person to what the Sinners knew Hong Lu as. There is a non-zero chance that Daiyu will be unable to hear Dante or be revived by them due to the one who signed the contract being Baoyu, and so they could end up acting as an uncontrollable ally unit not unlike Xichun in Canto 7.
The climax would then be Daiyu and Baoyu reuniting and being unwilling to part with each other again, even for the sake of returning to being the fake persona that is Hong Lu, leading to a potential duo boss fight/distortion boss fight/duo distortion boss fight.
The ending would be the two of them deciding to embrace their new identity as Hong Lu and truly becoming one, discarding their pasts and the selves that had been forced on them by the Jia Family. This ending would have a twofold meaning regarding how it connects to the DOTRC adaptation.
One - it would be a direct parallel to the ending of DOTRC where Baoyu leaves to become a monk. By becoming Hong Lu and discaring his previous identities, he'd be leaving behind the earthly attachments inherent to being Baoyu and Daiyu and become spiritually whole.
Two - it would be a reflection of the major theme of DOTRC, that being "Truth becomes fiction when the fiction's true. Real becomes not-real when the unreal's real." Hong Lu, as a person, is a 'fake' persona used by the 'real' Baoyu and Daiyu. However, by discarding those two identities and deciding to just be Hong Lu, the fiction of his existence becomes the truth, while his former real selves become not real.
Conclusion?
I could honestly just keep going with this post, but I think I'm going to stop myself here before I'm forced to find out what tumblr's character limit on posts is. Believe me, I was trying to be brief, and still this post is. This fucking long.
I hope this explains why this theory has been the subject of my brainrot for the past however long, and why I feel like it's surprisingly plausible despite being as deranged as it is.
Godspeed and godbless, I have classes tomorrow and I'm spending my time on this.
Desire (lust) to wait (sloth) so that curses (gloom) accumulate to cause more damage (wrath)? Nonsense straight out of Persona 5, with biding one's time specifically so that revenge will be sweeter. Also lol that mechanically he's what is labeled as buddha murti but what looks like khakkhara. Imagery of Heathcliff looking like a guy but being merely a staff to bonk the deserving(?).
The corrosion line kind of reinforces the 'playing the long game' take: "The wheel of samsara turns once." As in, it turns and the target is dead - but with it, there is no long game to play anymore, so (the reason to continue) Heathcliff is not more as well.
"I have not broken your heart - you have broken it; and in breaking it, you have broken mine."
is the quote that comes to mind, tho i'm sure someone who actually read it can pull out something much better ;^) Does that mean the quote is/will be a feather Cathy?
as for resistances: the pattern of weak-to-envy continues, in that someone else would have to sit his ass down and explain that this notion makes the world worse (instead of being to the point about it). Lust resist because it's the sort of harebrained plan that's less do-gooding and more feel-good (partially about one's inaction/inability to act). Light sloth resist as most of the time this mindset is in snooze mode ;D ...and also, why are they're equal? balancing aside maybe because if proportions are off, the behavior/vibe changes? Gloom it up too hard and it's just whining without doing anything at all. Wrath it up and retaliation is immediate. Lust it up and it's less karma themed and more just pummeling the target. Sloth it up and one ignores the opportunity to take revenge, blinded by despondency?
Oh this Sin Cost for Heathcliff's Ya Śūnyatā Tad Rūpam is juicy. I don't have the brainpower for in-depth analysis right now but.
The pairs of opposites in Wrath-Sloth and Lust-Gloom. The sheer addition of Wrath and Gloom compared to Outis's. The lack of Pride compared to Outis's. It's just so.
#everything is a fucking lie from both sides at this point
No it isn't. The product defends itself.
So is everyone gonna just ignore the fact that the leaked Document that PM sent over to the Union states that Vellmori was the one to resign herself and was the one who didn't want the info being spread around?
Like, I'm not saying PM handled this shit well, because they absolutely didn't, but the whole thing of her being fired is apparently just a straight up fucking lie.
And, if the Document PM sent to the Union is to be trusted (which, if they lied about that, I imagine that would be even more legal trouble than is worth for them with all this shit going on), that means that everyone being mad at PM for not saying anything more is being mad at them for Following Vellmori's Wishes.
Again, I'm not saying that PM handled Any of this well. They absolutely should have made sure that Vellmori didn't feel so threatened that she felt the need to resign. They absolutely fucked up in that department.
But the main thing people focused on, Vellmori's firing, allegedly just wasn't even real.
What the fuck is even going on anymore.
//Btw, here's the source for the translation of the Certificate of Contents that PM sent to the Union and which was later leaked.
these could be 'tumors' that spawn as byproducts of enkephalin box farming/spawned from careless storage thereof, as fitting bases that self-destruct - and else why would Carmen's anything be in LobCorp branches, but through all the looping in that game, they're never brought to attention in the main one?
…we know, as per Mephistopheles eating live/freshly dead people, that eveyone has a bit of cogito in them. What if people start producing golden boughts from themselves, instead of the usual pipeline? they would then make it easier for others to distort. …now how do you make it a chain/runaway reaction for maximum capacity for casualities…
False Apple has another, much less spicy angle to the 'it's deception on meta-layer'. It's a boss that has a second form distinct from the 1st one, including a namechange. Absolutely noone notices on the 1st go, because we're too genre savvy not to expect something with more teeth than "gimmick: boss with regen", even if the tutorial nature of it would overshadow that the regen doesn't have numbers big enough to have ever threatened the player. The 2nd form also sort of changes the bosses' strategy, such as it is: self-heal starts as passive healing+clash numbers so the player could be lured into doing 1-sideds into a clashed tile and hope they can out-attrition it… but the 2nd form has it's healing on it's attacks, and is simply more aggro with it's attrition aspect - instead of shields to stall it's bleed, to which we just don't have outs, nevermind on release.
do you see how easy it is to snowball with this shit???
that's why we love it, yes?
re: the forbidden fruit: it does come up in the theme tune, to the tune of this topic!
Stole from the tree’s hands A regretter’s friend — the forbidden fruit I bite off the skin Chewing on its tender flesh Quaff down its lukewarm pus
once more, flesh of an apple <=> flesh of a person. …which routes back to Burrowing Heaven and it's fruits. But then… why are the fruits forbidden? Surely we're not suddenly feeling shy about cannibalism? We have District 23 which is fine with it… because the city is fine with it… when flipped, it would make the fruit forbidden because it's made of people. When flipped, that would mean 'to not use people as means to an end, but as ends in an of themselves' aka. Kant's "Formula of Humanity". …a stable distortion as in 'one that paints the world in their own colors, ignoring the others' vs Effloresced EGO, which does not? Kali defending others, Vergilius wanting to raze the city, Dongrang wanting to kill the past?
tbh i think there would be some ground gained by splitting up comparing humans to plants, and to inanimate objects. Plants look inanimate, but are not. Have You Become Strong turns people into toy robots. My Form Empties covers/turns it's host into a statue. In both cases they're objectified, but most plant-like examples presented are mostly just vibing. It's the robots and the murti and the tourbot and the clay dolls that aggressively exist at you. (also, sidenote? in Canto 1 that ex-L corp employee pretended to be one to not die). Inquisitors seem somewhere inbetween, being both meaty and in your face - but also, wikia says the feral ones are turned Kleinhammers (and mechanically it takes a bit for them to 'wake up'), snake ones are (more brainwashed/fanatical) 'greater' Mittelhammers start aggro and then kind of… undulate with their Instinct stacks.
Everything There corrosions (lesser Mittelhammers) are somewhere between, starting with some Instinct that gets removed when they take damage (skillsets have no block/dodge). Like sure it gives them buffs, but then since player will read to focus-fire them why not just have them start at 0 Instincts + base stats up + lower trigger on behavior change + more buffs per instinct stack. …actually no that doesn't make for engaging gameplay, how do you keep getting past 'Because Good Game Design, That's Why'?! …so in a way, wouldn't some kind of objective of some party be 'to turn clay of the city into people'? re: Golden Boughs: specifically, even if the objective isn't replacing the current world with some other version, whoever (->Dante) we feed enough Boughs can become a God of the City? If rewriting reality is just what Boughs can be used for, isn't literally every objective that uses them also include destroying whatever they're overwriting? and thus, i'm not quite sure if old Dante getting beheaded (ha) is quite on par of with sinners having one continuous line between their past selves and their current selves. Even if we pull Alchemy of the Self motif on it and all that but… something about this just doesn't gel. The city still has influence over new Dante which flavor-wise makes sense to be less important than friendly interacting with Sinners on roughly equal ground, but also? that's not now we're solving either Gacha Eternity nor The City as a metaphor for South Korea. The goal will not succeed for meta reasons. But the goal was never new Dante's, and thus lessening/abandoning it will fit neatly into the above. …split the Bough's power between the sinners which dilutes the impact?
Stuck in Heaven (ego gift: Late-bloomer's Tattoo) has been grinding my gears for a while now. It has an idea - and a clear one at that - but i can't figure out what it *is*. Wiki has the event transcript. Pls send help
Alright, back to my proper analyses, and... *cracks knuckles* Oh this one's gonna be fun. I want to say that since this one won't need to get into E.G.O analysis, then this post will be a bit shorter than my other full-length analyses...
But. You know how it is with me. For all I know this one might end up ridiculously long anyway. Also, uh, spoilers for Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina ahead.
So, before we can talk about Stuck in Heaven, we need to talk about the other Abnormality it's directly related to - The Burrowing Heaven.
The Burrowing Heaven debuted in Lobotomy Corporation, but later made a return in Library of Ruina as one of the Abnormality Battles. For the sake of completion, I will be taking a look at both of its appearances in the series.
In its original appearance, Burrowing Heaven takes on the form of a tree-like entity, made up of a fleshy material, with branches that seperate into wing-like shapes and many eyes.
Its main mechanics in Lobotomy Corporation is that the Abnormality needs to be on-screen to prevent it from breaching and teleporting away once it does breach. This mechanic is reflected in a lot of flavor text about it, most directly in the description of its E.G.O Gear, which includes the sentence "Just contain it in your sight."
Burrowing Heaven's story further expands on this idea. The Abnormality is repeatedly said to "live inside your eyes/gaze", to feed on the attention and focus others give it by looking at it. However, the moment one looks away for too long, it begins to stretch the stalks of its wings for two reasons - one, to gather corpses as food for the fruit it bears; two, to reach towards the sky and sun, as if to cover it up.
Religious imagery and symbolism is used all over for this Abnormality. From the act of stretching its limbs being compared to praying to an old-forgotten god, to its wings reaching the skies being compared to an angel, to the action of it growing its thorns and burrowing being described as for the purpose of "reaching heaven inside one's vision".
Now, there's a very interesting part of Burrowing Heaven's story in LobCorp that I want to point out. Usually, when those stories are said in first person, it's either through the use of "we" (to reflect the company/employees writing those down as a whole), or with the passage being specified as either some testimony or log or otherwise being quoted.
However... That's not the case here. For Burrowing Heaven, there is a whole section in its story written in first person, with no clear note of it being quoted from something else. Allow me to paste the segment in its entirety.
"That's what a gaze is. Attention. An invisible string that connects us. Sole focus. Do not come here, as there is no place for you to rest. But you see, I could only bear fruit when I stood inside your sight. Is this what you wanted to see? When your tears dry up at last, tell me your answer."
Interesting, isn't it?
However, we're not done yet. There is still the context of its appearance in Library of Ruina, so let's look at that, shall we?
In Library of Ruina, Burrowing Heaven's Abno Battle is placed on the Floor of Religion, aka Hokma's Floor, alongside Price of Silence, Blue Star, and WhiteNight.
Narratively, this Library Floor explores the faith and dedication that Carmen's group put into her and Ayin, especially from Hokma's perspective, who unconditionally put his trust into Ayin back when he was known as Benjamin. Thus, all of the Abnormalities fought on this symbolically represent Carmen's unwavering dedication to gathering like-minded people to make her dream come true, and the devotion those who followed felt towards her and her goals.
When it comes to the Burrowing Heaven, there is some more info we can gather from its Abno Battle in this game, starting off with its new appearance:
As you can see, the previously tree-like form has been replaced with one that very clearly represent a human's central nervous system, brain and spinal cord included. The bloody wings and eyes still remain though.
...Now. Those who have played Lobotomy Corporation might recognize what Burrowing Heaven is meant to represent in this form. And for those who haven't, allow me to show you something.
This is what became of Carmen after her death:
A disembodied central nervous system, with its nerves spread out in an almost wing-like fashion.
While most of the flavor text here repeats what we know about the Abno from LobCorp, there are a few unique pieces of text I want to shine a spotlight on right here.
"The desire for the unreachable will only grow bigger. And to pursue it… is to tread a path riddled with thorns."
"Basking in everyone’s gaze and attention… It will finally come to fruition and spread its wings."
"The one who spread their wings sacrificed everything they had, and yet…"
"Just close your eyes. That’s right, you’re doing good…"
"If we ever open our eyes again, will we get to see the fruit of our labor in that gaze?"
...In case you were wondering why I was being so scant on the interpretation part of this analysis, this is why. This connection is what changes Burrowing Heaven from a nebulous concept to a direct parallel.
Burrowing Heaven, at its core, is a reflection of Carmen. More specifically, Carmen's dream, and the way she and her followers acted to reach her goals. How, to pursue it, they had to single-mindedly focus on that goal, to make many sacrifices for the sake of reaching what seemed unreachable.
It could also represent how Carmen's seeming demise and the following tragedies happened because nobody paid attention to the warning signs, nobody focused on Carmen when she was at her lowest. And yet, those very tragedies are what led to even more attention being put on making progress towards that goal, towards Carmen's wings spreading out and reaching ever closer towards the heaven she so desired.
The gaze being put on her may have put her deep underground, in the vat where her nervous system became a source of Cogito... but it also eventually led to the breathtaking sight that was the Light. And now that there is no more gaze left on her, her wings can spread everywhere, blocking out the sun with her own Light.
When you think about it, isn't that how Distortions take place under Carmen's influence? Just close your eyes and ignore the world around you. Let your desires guide you. Just like Carmen is encouraging you to do, patiently. That's right, you're doing good, following what she says.
...Okay that's all fine and good, but what the fuck does all this mean for Stuck in Heaven? Let's get to that.
From just a cursory look at its physical description, Stuck in Heaven appears to be the next step of progression in this Heaven line of Abnormalities. From the tree-like form of the LobCorp Burrowing Heaven, to the brainstem in Library of Ruina, to Stuck in Heaven taking the form of growths directly growing over a person.
Interestingly enough, the Mirror Dungeon event describes Stuck in Heaven as having "the appearance" of a branch, yet being human. Curious.
This is also where a difference is established between Stuck in Heaven and Burrowing Heaven, with the event text directly referencing the Abnormality that Stuck in Heaven is related to.
"Heaven sometimes burrows; other times, it makes a home in the heart. Once taken root, that heaven will only be visible through the eyes of others."
Immediately, this tells us one major thing - Stuck in Heaven does not burrow like Burrowing Heaven, it does not need to feed on the attention people give through vision. Rather, the thing it aims to take root in is the heart.
The text you get from taking the [Close your eyes.] option explains why Stuck in Heaven does that. When it takes root in one's heart, closing one's eyes is not enough to get it out of one's gaze, as the sight it sought out is that coming from the heart itself.
I believe this is also why actually trying to [Return the gaze.] with one's eyes does nothing. With Burrowing Heaven, which actively sought out one's eye vision, one can find many references to it being alive and actively watching its observer back. However, trying to do so with Stuck in Heaven results in it ignoring the observer. The heaven Stuck in Heaven is looking for is not in the eyes, but past them. "Behind me", as the text puts it.
Now... all of that might not have much meaning without further context. After all, what's all this looking with one's eyes and looking with one's heart stuff about?
And this. Is where we get to The Little Prince.
Yeah, remember how Demian seems to be representing the titular Little Prince himself, through him directly quoting the kid?
Yeah, that's not the only thing Limbus Company borrows from that book. In fact, from what I've gathered, The Little Prince might just be one of, if not the most important books when it comes to the themes Limbus Company is setting itself up to explore.
And the main theme that Limbus Company borrows from that book is the theme of seeing with the eyes vs seeing with the heart. It is all over this narrative. The constant focus on perception and what everyone is percieving through their senses. The equal focus on the heart, of how subjective reality is when looking at the reflections of one's heart, yet how one has to follow the heart to reach the unreachable. I mean, for fuck's sake, the word Limbus can refer to both a part of the eye and a part of the heart!
Most importantly, I think it's also the key to understanding Stuck in Heaven a bit better. In The Little Prince, a clear divide is established between the Little Prince, who uses his imagination to understand his reality, and "the grown-ups", who focus solely on the physical world.
Stuck in Heaven's E.G.O Gift is named Late-Bloomer's Tattoo. A late-bloomer is someone who takes a long time to develop one's skills or grow up. For Stuck in Heaven to be able to leave its mark (or Tattoo) on someone, to take root in their heart, one has to not be a grown-up yet, to still be able to see the world with one's heart rather than one's eyes.
So... What does it all mean?
I'll be honest, I don't fucking know! I don't even know if Stuck in Heaven even still has connections to Carmen the way Burrowing Heaven does!
What I can say however, is that Stuck in Heaven is likely extremely interconnected with the main plot and themes of Limbus Company, the same way Burrowing Heaven was for Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina.
Does it represent the goals of Limbus Company itself? Faust? The Golden Boughs? The fucking Mark of Cain?
The reality of it all is... we just aren't far enough along in the story yet to be sure. The way it connects to one of the bigger themes of Limbus Company, alongside it being directly related to the Abnormality that was so directly paralleling the end-game reveals about Carmen in LobCorp, means that we likely just don't have enough of the puzzle pieces yet to see the full picture of what Stuck in Heaven truly represents.
I'm sure as we head closer towards Limbus Company's endgame, the true meaning of Stuck in Heaven will become much, much clearer to us. But, until then, all we can do is wait and see what comes next. It's definitely a subject I'll want to revisit later on, once we get a better grasp on the overarching plot and will be able to start properly connecting the pieces.
Sorry that I couldn't give a more definite answer as to what Stuck in Heaven's exact meaning is, but from all the analysis I've done I genuinely think this is the best answer I can give. That it's a direct parallel to something within the main plot of Limbus Company that we have yet to learn, similarly to how Burrowing Heaven is a direct parallel to Carmen and the path taken to reach her goals.
Once more, all makes (some) sense, just like that. You mentioned Burrowing Heaven hides the sky the sky with it's branches, but being Carmen, it's also the Light. To indulge in one's desires with no regards to reality/others -> to be Stuck in (one's) Heaven!! Plus, closing one's eyes (=ignoring reality, focusing on yourself) is what gives Carmen-looking tattoo (brand.. Mark, even.) but 'heaven through the eys of others' in this case would be the lack of self-awareness that comes from ignoring the external + because the exteral keeps intruding, it's not heaven from the PoV of the one stuck in it! Which would kind of take a shot at explaining why there is a hole in SiH: it ain't gonna be filled, and seems like it's the doing of not-burrowing, as opposed to grey dude. it looking like a branch (of the burrowing heaven), but also humanoid -> seeks to invade the heart (emotions/exploit immature outlook), not the eyes (reason/resignation to reality). And to look at it, is to look/give attention to the world around! …it's an abnormality about distortions, specifically this sort of mid-point between 'normie' and 'abnormality' seen in Leviathan (Spotty), and (maybe? haven't finished LoR yet kek) Reverbation Ensemble? It would also attempt explaining why the gift is Pride-coded. It lacks cute wordplay of Prejudice, and we're already operating on the assumption the game doesn't do any semblance of a color wheel, so: it is pride, because to close one's eyes in this context is to gain advantages from it (some kind of distortion/clarity of self-image), while ignoring drawbacks (some kind of distortion ;^) and also arresting one's development/growth by ignoring anything that would trigger it)
Face the Sin, Save the Ego: these stable distortions are not effloresced EGO (which btw, blooming flower imagery (awaiting pollination of external ideas?) vs light/distortions-as fruit of Carmen('s work))
this implies prodding Stuck in Heaven prompts us to theorize the plot to get the abno's deal. Let's go, and try not to rehash any other theory too much, lel. …what is the core Driving Question of Limbus Company? the nature of Dante, in small scale. In the grand scheme of things - the sudden mass death event. It hasn't been retconned out yet, right? can't seem to find a sauce.
The Golden Boughs (bough: large branch of a tree) are being gathered. A single one eases various coherent distortions to manifest (Kromer, possibly Dongrang), so a large enough amount of them would prompt whoever to have a stable distortion with minimal prompting. (thanks @lu-is-not-ok) …but that doesn't quite cover the novel threat of stable distortions having nonsense abno abilities (Pluto from LoR), combined with being clever in how they're using them - to play the long game. …or in a way that amplifies the heart of most issues presented by the social critique these games are (selfishness?).
bonus: something something all trailers and the 'opening' use the same part of "In Hell We Live, Lament" which i assume is the deal is similar to LoR, in that cherrypicked bits are of particular relevance to the plot. Had a theory coherency check mid-rant and failed kek.
tl;dr this implies we're sleeping on a lot of tree/growth imagery
once more, for the people in the background: Lu, how is your brain so wrinkly.
Stuck in Heaven (ego gift: Late-bloomer's Tattoo) has been grinding my gears for a while now. It has an idea - and a clear one at that - but i can't figure out what it *is*. Wiki has the event transcript. Pls send help
Alright, back to my proper analyses, and... *cracks knuckles* Oh this one's gonna be fun. I want to say that since this one won't need to get into E.G.O analysis, then this post will be a bit shorter than my other full-length analyses...
But. You know how it is with me. For all I know this one might end up ridiculously long anyway. Also, uh, spoilers for Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina ahead.
So, before we can talk about Stuck in Heaven, we need to talk about the other Abnormality it's directly related to - The Burrowing Heaven.
The Burrowing Heaven debuted in Lobotomy Corporation, but later made a return in Library of Ruina as one of the Abnormality Battles. For the sake of completion, I will be taking a look at both of its appearances in the series.
In its original appearance, Burrowing Heaven takes on the form of a tree-like entity, made up of a fleshy material, with branches that seperate into wing-like shapes and many eyes.
Its main mechanics in Lobotomy Corporation is that the Abnormality needs to be on-screen to prevent it from breaching and teleporting away once it does breach. This mechanic is reflected in a lot of flavor text about it, most directly in the description of its E.G.O Gear, which includes the sentence "Just contain it in your sight."
Burrowing Heaven's story further expands on this idea. The Abnormality is repeatedly said to "live inside your eyes/gaze", to feed on the attention and focus others give it by looking at it. However, the moment one looks away for too long, it begins to stretch the stalks of its wings for two reasons - one, to gather corpses as food for the fruit it bears; two, to reach towards the sky and sun, as if to cover it up.
Religious imagery and symbolism is used all over for this Abnormality. From the act of stretching its limbs being compared to praying to an old-forgotten god, to its wings reaching the skies being compared to an angel, to the action of it growing its thorns and burrowing being described as for the purpose of "reaching heaven inside one's vision".
Now, there's a very interesting part of Burrowing Heaven's story in LobCorp that I want to point out. Usually, when those stories are said in first person, it's either through the use of "we" (to reflect the company/employees writing those down as a whole), or with the passage being specified as either some testimony or log or otherwise being quoted.
However... That's not the case here. For Burrowing Heaven, there is a whole section in its story written in first person, with no clear note of it being quoted from something else. Allow me to paste the segment in its entirety.
"That's what a gaze is. Attention. An invisible string that connects us. Sole focus. Do not come here, as there is no place for you to rest. But you see, I could only bear fruit when I stood inside your sight. Is this what you wanted to see? When your tears dry up at last, tell me your answer."
Interesting, isn't it?
However, we're not done yet. There is still the context of its appearance in Library of Ruina, so let's look at that, shall we?
In Library of Ruina, Burrowing Heaven's Abno Battle is placed on the Floor of Religion, aka Hokma's Floor, alongside Price of Silence, Blue Star, and WhiteNight.
Narratively, this Library Floor explores the faith and dedication that Carmen's group put into her and Ayin, especially from Hokma's perspective, who unconditionally put his trust into Ayin back when he was known as Benjamin. Thus, all of the Abnormalities fought on this symbolically represent Carmen's unwavering dedication to gathering like-minded people to make her dream come true, and the devotion those who followed felt towards her and her goals.
When it comes to the Burrowing Heaven, there is some more info we can gather from its Abno Battle in this game, starting off with its new appearance:
As you can see, the previously tree-like form has been replaced with one that very clearly represent a human's central nervous system, brain and spinal cord included. The bloody wings and eyes still remain though.
...Now. Those who have played Lobotomy Corporation might recognize what Burrowing Heaven is meant to represent in this form. And for those who haven't, allow me to show you something.
This is what became of Carmen after her death:
A disembodied central nervous system, with its nerves spread out in an almost wing-like fashion.
While most of the flavor text here repeats what we know about the Abno from LobCorp, there are a few unique pieces of text I want to shine a spotlight on right here.
"The desire for the unreachable will only grow bigger. And to pursue it… is to tread a path riddled with thorns."
"Basking in everyone’s gaze and attention… It will finally come to fruition and spread its wings."
"The one who spread their wings sacrificed everything they had, and yet…"
"Just close your eyes. That’s right, you’re doing good…"
"If we ever open our eyes again, will we get to see the fruit of our labor in that gaze?"
...In case you were wondering why I was being so scant on the interpretation part of this analysis, this is why. This connection is what changes Burrowing Heaven from a nebulous concept to a direct parallel.
Burrowing Heaven, at its core, is a reflection of Carmen. More specifically, Carmen's dream, and the way she and her followers acted to reach her goals. How, to pursue it, they had to single-mindedly focus on that goal, to make many sacrifices for the sake of reaching what seemed unreachable.
It could also represent how Carmen's seeming demise and the following tragedies happened because nobody paid attention to the warning signs, nobody focused on Carmen when she was at her lowest. And yet, those very tragedies are what led to even more attention being put on making progress towards that goal, towards Carmen's wings spreading out and reaching ever closer towards the heaven she so desired.
The gaze being put on her may have put her deep underground, in the vat where her nervous system became a source of Cogito... but it also eventually led to the breathtaking sight that was the Light. And now that there is no more gaze left on her, her wings can spread everywhere, blocking out the sun with her own Light.
When you think about it, isn't that how Distortions take place under Carmen's influence? Just close your eyes and ignore the world around you. Let your desires guide you. Just like Carmen is encouraging you to do, patiently. That's right, you're doing good, following what she says.
...Okay that's all fine and good, but what the fuck does all this mean for Stuck in Heaven? Let's get to that.
From just a cursory look at its physical description, Stuck in Heaven appears to be the next step of progression in this Heaven line of Abnormalities. From the tree-like form of the LobCorp Burrowing Heaven, to the brainstem in Library of Ruina, to Stuck in Heaven taking the form of growths directly growing over a person.
Interestingly enough, the Mirror Dungeon event describes Stuck in Heaven as having "the appearance" of a branch, yet being human. Curious.
This is also where a difference is established between Stuck in Heaven and Burrowing Heaven, with the event text directly referencing the Abnormality that Stuck in Heaven is related to.
"Heaven sometimes burrows; other times, it makes a home in the heart. Once taken root, that heaven will only be visible through the eyes of others."
Immediately, this tells us one major thing - Stuck in Heaven does not burrow like Burrowing Heaven, it does not need to feed on the attention people give through vision. Rather, the thing it aims to take root in is the heart.
The text you get from taking the [Close your eyes.] option explains why Stuck in Heaven does that. When it takes root in one's heart, closing one's eyes is not enough to get it out of one's gaze, as the sight it sought out is that coming from the heart itself.
I believe this is also why actually trying to [Return the gaze.] with one's eyes does nothing. With Burrowing Heaven, which actively sought out one's eye vision, one can find many references to it being alive and actively watching its observer back. However, trying to do so with Stuck in Heaven results in it ignoring the observer. The heaven Stuck in Heaven is looking for is not in the eyes, but past them. "Behind me", as the text puts it.
Now... all of that might not have much meaning without further context. After all, what's all this looking with one's eyes and looking with one's heart stuff about?
And this. Is where we get to The Little Prince.
Yeah, remember how Demian seems to be representing the titular Little Prince himself, through him directly quoting the kid?
Yeah, that's not the only thing Limbus Company borrows from that book. In fact, from what I've gathered, The Little Prince might just be one of, if not the most important books when it comes to the themes Limbus Company is setting itself up to explore.
And the main theme that Limbus Company borrows from that book is the theme of seeing with the eyes vs seeing with the heart. It is all over this narrative. The constant focus on perception and what everyone is percieving through their senses. The equal focus on the heart, of how subjective reality is when looking at the reflections of one's heart, yet how one has to follow the heart to reach the unreachable. I mean, for fuck's sake, the word Limbus can refer to both a part of the eye and a part of the heart!
Most importantly, I think it's also the key to understanding Stuck in Heaven a bit better. In The Little Prince, a clear divide is established between the Little Prince, who uses his imagination to understand his reality, and "the grown-ups", who focus solely on the physical world.
Stuck in Heaven's E.G.O Gift is named Late-Bloomer's Tattoo. A late-bloomer is someone who takes a long time to develop one's skills or grow up. For Stuck in Heaven to be able to leave its mark (or Tattoo) on someone, to take root in their heart, one has to not be a grown-up yet, to still be able to see the world with one's heart rather than one's eyes.
So... What does it all mean?
I'll be honest, I don't fucking know! I don't even know if Stuck in Heaven even still has connections to Carmen the way Burrowing Heaven does!
What I can say however, is that Stuck in Heaven is likely extremely interconnected with the main plot and themes of Limbus Company, the same way Burrowing Heaven was for Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina.
Does it represent the goals of Limbus Company itself? Faust? The Golden Boughs? The fucking Mark of Cain?
The reality of it all is... we just aren't far enough along in the story yet to be sure. The way it connects to one of the bigger themes of Limbus Company, alongside it being directly related to the Abnormality that was so directly paralleling the end-game reveals about Carmen in LobCorp, means that we likely just don't have enough of the puzzle pieces yet to see the full picture of what Stuck in Heaven truly represents.
I'm sure as we head closer towards Limbus Company's endgame, the true meaning of Stuck in Heaven will become much, much clearer to us. But, until then, all we can do is wait and see what comes next. It's definitely a subject I'll want to revisit later on, once we get a better grasp on the overarching plot and will be able to start properly connecting the pieces.
Sorry that I couldn't give a more definite answer as to what Stuck in Heaven's exact meaning is, but from all the analysis I've done I genuinely think this is the best answer I can give. That it's a direct parallel to something within the main plot of Limbus Company that we have yet to learn, similarly to how Burrowing Heaven is a direct parallel to Carmen and the path taken to reach her goals.
yiss thank you for a starter point to iterate further. MFE does have it's own mid-fight event!
if passed, it eats stagger. TvTropes also has a page on 108
other ideas/notes:
observation logs: floating -> not grounded in reality.
is [DATA EXPUNGED] related to [DATA EXPUNGED] -> WhiteNight, naturally. deity theme + collects underlings + fights mostly through them + healing as minion revival + dmg AND buffs. In fact, as you noted MFE's broad strokes is 'false idol' - wouldn't that make every WN aberration a false idol of some sort? hmhm.
if memory serves stone seat [foot icon] points you to the statue, but buddha murti [ribcage] points to it's khakkara. idk but i like the mindfuck
weak to lust + lust on skills -> prompts to indulge in one's (violent) desires, like it does (the buffing deals dmg to underling!), then gets suprised-pikachu someone flips it against it
wrath skills are the ones that apply "take more dmg and die" status, on both sides: pissy at others ("Its chants are imbued with a curse.") that do not worship it - and that they do not drop dead? and at underlings that are weak (that fail to deal dmg/kill the targets of it's ire) …wouldn't that line up it's emptying/mutterings into whining There Are Problems but not actually doing anything about it? Bitching sessions turning into a goal in-of-itself (empty: "without purpose or interest") and/or to maintain brainwashed followers (empty: "not sincere or without any real meaning") ?
now that you mention color split: karmic cycle as cycle of violence?
stone murti (devotional image of a deity) is stone, until you hack at it enough and it reveals itself as fleshy (=human)
ngl the longer i think about it the more i get the mental image of some rightwing pundit manifesting it. Maybe because i fought it enough for the mind wander, specifically to a bit from an article:
And while he always professes to be laughing his fucking ass off at Biden, or congressional Democrats, or climate change believers, or the vaccinated, or Black Lives Matter protesters, it never feels as genuine as when he talks about the beloved dogs and cats he’s rescued and nurtured back to health. Maintaining his level of clout as a political heckler, B. acknowledges, is a tiresome job for a lone man pushing 60. When you weigh up what he gets in the bargain, it doesn’t seem like much.
even tho 'shouldering another's suffering' is right there, in the text. …as in "i agree and understand your self-indulgent takes"?
regarding "forever still": The stillness to look like one calm place within the storm, or am i going all GameTheorists (/pej) here?
…Which is why Outis EGO is so ???, so thanks for clarifying. "[karma] shall rest atop your head" + bowing down to MFE -> weight of one's indulgence in earthly pleasures prompting worship of an idol? "fall silent as if there was no suffering" + false compassion -> gets hostile if someone complains (demands their concerns be heard, as opposed of being lulled by the illusion of compassion)/only it is allowed to bitch and moan about what it considers problems? ….which does fit how Outis treats other sinners, ngl. And you can force it into some vaguely military shape of 'will do first aid, will not care for your trauma'.
I'd say it's not the emptiness that harms (whatever that is), but reveal the deity is a mere human.
Alternate reading to prop up the conclusion:
cost: to indulge in violence, but do so passively/via others, for military objectives. Managing troop morale?
resists: lust is x0.5 instead of x2! fixated on it's own wants, making yours insignificant to it? Gloom x2, Sloth x2 -> calling out on it's own misery, and inaction which reinforces it?
…good thing the fight is so damn long so we have time to attempt to grasp the meaning, eh?
don't know if you have yet, but could you talk about Ya Śūnyatā Tad Rūpam?
Now, before I get into it, I'd like to make myself clear: my knowledge on Buddhism is extremely limited, so it's very likely that I'll miss some context around this E.G.O and Abnormality. I will try to research certain terms and ideas if they come up, but I am by no means an authority on these matters. Anyone more knowledgable on this subject is more than welcome to add onto this post in case I miss something.
With all that out of the way, let's dive under the cut for this shit.
Let's start with the Abnormality itself, My Form Empties. Now, it is immediately obvious that this Abno is heavily based in Buddhism, with the Abno itself taking on the form of a statue of Buddha that reveals a flesh-like interior when broken. Keep the idea of the stone exterior hiding the fleshy interior in mind.
In battle, My Form Empties makes use of two different Sin Affinities. Whenever it inflicts buffs and debuffs, it uses Lust Skills. On the other hand, whenever it inflicts Karma, it uses Wrath Skills.
The Skills that MFE uses to inflict Karma on both its enemies and allies are called Sluggard Waker and Compulsory Offering, both of which paint a very introduction to what this Abno wants. It giving Karma to others is seen as it Waking People Up and Forcing Them To Give It Offerings.
The latter is what caught my attention. From my brief research, Buddhism does have the concept of Offerings, however from my basic understanding they are much more bening than what MFE seems to want. In Buddhism, Offerings are usually made out of simple objects such as candles, incense, flowers, food, drinks, and such; as well as the acts of giving, following morals, meditating, and practicing wisdom. These Offerings are meant to grant the person who gives them merit, which leads to better rebirth and progress towards the release from suffering. ...I think. I'm no expert, so if I'm wrong, please do correct me!
Anyway, the reason why I'm going so deep into this is because of the nature of Offerings that MFE seems to look for.
Let's briefly look at how the Karma status effect works during its fight: MFE uses skills to inflict Karma (implied to be Bad Karma specifically) on its enemies, but if the enemy wins the clash, it inflicts Karma on its allies instead. When a unit with Karma successfuly hits another unit, its Karma gets transferred onto that unit. If the stone exterior of MFE is broken, it inflicts more Karma on its own allies, and begins targetting them with its own skills. Karma causes whoever has it to take more damage, and when its count reaches 108, the unit will instantly die.
With all of that laid out like that, here's how I understand what's going on. The Offerings done for MFE have the same "purpose" as in actual Buddhism - that being gaining merit and good karma, mechanically represented by getting rid of the (bad) Karma status effect. However, it's the nature of these Offerings that is the red flag - MFE rewards violence with good karma, and punishes weakness and insubordination with bad karma.
My theory on what this means is this: MFE is not a representation of the actual Buddha... obviously. Rather, it's a fake, twisted idol that uses the image of Buddha and concepts associated with it to gather followers and make them do its bidding. Remember the whole thing with its stone, statue-like exterior hiding a fleshy interior? I believe that statue-like look is a mere facade, while the real MFE is the flesh hidden within.
Keep in mind this idea of a fake idol hiding underneath a stone-like mask for when we later discuss the themes.
Now, I want to take a look at the Skill MFE uses to kill whoever has the most (bad) Karma at that moment - Prajñāpāramitā.
From my, again, brief research, the word means "the Perfection of Wisdom" or "Transcendental Knowledge" when translated literally. It's this concept of a perfect way of seeing the nature of reality, a type of knowledge that looks past form, sensations, perceptions, and so on. Themes of emptiness and lack of self appear to be quite important to the concept.
So... what exactly does it mean for MFE to be using this form of transcendental knowledge to effectively punish those who collect too much Bad Karma? Well, there is a possible hint to what happens in the unused texts for its MD interaction. This unused text reads:
"You close your eyes and focus on the sound. What is it saying? This thing is uttering thoughts. Empty oneself by verbalizing one’s thoughts. Expel everything within so that nothing remains. That is the statue’s way of forgetting the self. You sense yourself disappearing as well."
I think this makes it quite clear. When someone in MFE's vicinity accumulates too much Bad Karma, it effectively tells them how to reach that transcendental knowledge. How to forget one's self. How to destroy everything inside until nothing but emptiness remains. And just like that, whoever was told that does as told, and disappears without a trace.
It's a twisted take on this idea, turning the concept of reaching spiritual awakening through kindness and good deeds, into one of dangerous forbidden knowledge forced onto whoever this false idol deems its opposition.
Now, let's take a brief look at the names of the Lust Skills and Passives, and what they may mean.
Expound Sutras (grants Attack Power to allies) - the act of presenting or explaining sutras, aka scriptures. Could be interpreted as MFE presents its rules and scriptures as a way to bolster its followers' resolve.
Mahāsrī (gives Protection to target) - seems to be a reference to Lakshmi, a Hindu goddess of prosperity among other things.
Svāhā (gives Damage Up to target) - seems to be a reference to Svaha, the Hindu goddess of sacrifices.
The above two skills are interesting, as they reference Hinduism rather than Buddhism. My interpretation of that is that MFE, as a false idol, is "borrowing" the visages of other deities to give blessings, once again enforcing this idea of using facades of true god-like beings to exert power over others.
Dhyāna (inflicts Power Down and halves debuffs on self, also the name of the passive giving it 10 Protection) - a method of meditation that is meant to destroy states of mind that prevent the reaching of true awareness and detachment. Could be interpreted as MFE using this form of meditation to expel debuffs from itself, and instead inflicting them on its enemies, as well as it using it to protect itself from harm to its concentration.
Anatman (passive that activates when the interior is exposed) - a doctrine that claims nothing is truly unchanging or permanent. MFE entering this state of Anatman when its facade is broken could mean that the "true" nature of this false idol is one that is a lack of permanent self or essence, thus having to use the image of another figure to exert power. Keep that idea of one's nature being a lack of self in mind.
Nirmāna (passive that activates when the exterior recovers) - from my understanding, this refers to Nirmāṇakāya, the physical manifestation of Buddha. This seems to symbolize MFE returning to its facade, hiding its real identity under the visage of Buddha.
Okay, that was a lot. Let's take a look at the information we have on MFE from its Abno Logs and MD event.
From the Logs, we get a further confirmation that MFE's followers are obligated to protect it, and that when they fail, MFE starts punishing them. MFE is also outright called an idol of worship, and we learn that the "Karma" it uses manifests physically as a ring attached to those who accumulate it.
From the MD Event, we get to learn a few more things.
One - MFE uses mantras to verbalize its own thoughts to empty itself, further driving home that its true nature is one of emptiness, of lack of self or essence. We also learn that this chanting is not "joyous" and it's imbued with a "curse", once again twisting a concept tied to spiritual awakening in Buddhism into something much more negative.
Two - MFE is capable of judging people on whether they are "worthy" or not, as it denies giving up its ring if you fail the skill check. This further points to its judgemental and punishing demeanor towards its followers.
Three - The statue itself is described as "forever still", unmoving regardless of what happens around it. An unchanging self as a facade to an interior described as impermanent and empty.
Now, that was. A lot. If you made it this far, you are very brave and I'm proud of you. Let's actually lay out the themes My Form Empties touches upon.
The first theme I believe is important here is the idea of a false idol. This concept of something ungodly, fake, taking on the visage of a deity, of someone in power, to control others to do its bidding. In a broader sense, it's the concept of faking the position of authority for the sake of furthering one's goals.
The second theme I want to point out is the impermanence of essence, the lack of self. This idea of expelling everything within oneself, of forgetting one's self, so that one's true nature is simply emptiness. The concept of no true identity behind the mask, only nothingness.
Finally, the third theme I want to note is the idea of retribution. Of punishing acts that go against oneself. What goes around, comes around. That somewhat simplified concept of karma that is more common in western pop culture.
Alright, got all that?
Good. We can actually move on to the E.G.O itself now. (I'm sorry if you're at this point, I genuinely didn't want this analysis to be longer than Hex Nail's, but fuck man My Form Empties turned out to be a fascinating Abno to dig into.)
From my brief research, the phrase "Ya Śūnyatā Tad Rūpam" translates to "whatever emptiness there is, that is form", which seems to be a quote from the Heart Sutra (what MFE is inspired by).
During her Awakening attack, Outis says the following line: "Karma shall find its way back to you, and rest atop your head.", which is Incredibly Interesting. First of all, we have the theme of retribution in the form of Karma. This idea that the retribution of one's actions will inevitably come for whoever commited a wrongdoing. However, that's not all.
The phrasing of "rest atop your head", combined with the replacing of the khakkhara MFE uses with a more standard-looking blade brings to mind the story of the Sword of Damocles. A sword that hangs above the head of someone in power, reminding them that despite their great fortune, the cruelty they had to commit has put them in constant danger.
This is then combined with Outis performing an attack animation that heavily resembles that of MFE's Prajñāpāramitā attack, which we discussed earlier.
Now, there are two ways I believe this can be interpreted in.
One is Outis being the one seeking retribution. The other is Outis being the one on the recieving end of that retribution. From what we know of Outis's source, I believe we're dealing with the latter.
Outis has done something horrible in her past, which is extremely likely from the little bits we know of her thus far. This has caused a target to be put on her back, as it's not unreasonable to think either a specific person or whole factions are hoping she pays for what she's done, that retribution comes and punishes her for what she's done.
And she knows it. This way of being able to see her true reality, of knowing that she'll get what's coming to her sooner or later, this "forbidden knowledge", is a source of anxiety for her. Her Sword of Damocles, if you will.
Moving on, during her Corrosion attack, her dialogue line is "Fall silent… As if there were no suffering in the first place…", which is so fucking loaded that I don't know where to even begin.
This idea of ignoring suffering, of staying quiet despite obvious harm taking place. Is Outis here talking about the suffering of others? How she stayed silent as her actions caused immesurable harm to other people? Or is Outis here talking about her own suffering? How she has to stay silent and ignore her own pain to put on a brave, stone-faced mask?
The animation of the attack here is also interesting. While it still mimics MFE's Prajñāpāramitā attack, it's not actually directed against opponent. Outis directs the attack onto herself, causing her facade to fall away one by one. Clothes fall away, stone cracks, and what's revealed is the fleshy interior not unlike MFE's. This reveal of the emptiness within is what harms the opponent, rather than the blade itself.
Is this symbolic of Outis revealing that under her mask, under this facade of a military commander, there's no true identity beneath? That she truly is the Nobody she calls herself?
Let's get into the Sin Analysis part. If you are still here, I appreciate you, and I'm so sorry this is probably genuinely like twice as long as Hex Nail.
Ya Śūnyatā Tad Rūpam's Sin Affinity is Lust. It's a somewhat weird choice, but I think this ties back to MFE's first theme. By using this E.G.O, Outis takes on the emotional state of a false idol, of a fake authority, someone who puts on a facade to achieve something. The usage of Lust here could signify that that's the main motive for putting on this facade, for Outis to fulfill whatever goals she may have.
While it's possible that Lust Affinity here could imply some form of indulgence, I personally don't think that's really the case here. I believe that here Lust Affinity is meant to specifically represent the motive of fulfilling one's personal goals through the act that the E.G.O represents, that being becoming a false figure of authority.
Sin Resources-wise, Ya Śūnyatā Tad Rūpam requires equal amounts Lust, Sloth, and Pride.
Lust, like I mentioned when discussing the Affinity, likely represents Outis entering this state of mind to fulfill her own personal goal. I think the important part of Lust's usage here is the emphasis on these goals being personal. Whatever led her to take on this facade was likely something she deeply cared about.
Sloth here could represent a few things. One is the inaction in the face of suffering, this act of "falling silent" that Outis references in her Corrosion line. Another interpretation could be Outis's resignation to the inevitable retribution coming her way. She knows that Karma, this Sword of Damocles, is resting over her head, and yet she does nothing to change it. Perhaps she knows that there's nothing she can do, and has thus resigned herself to waiting for the moment that Sword finally drops.
Pride is, perhaps, the most obvious one of these three. To fall into this state of mind, to take on the false authority deception, Outis has to ignore the negative consequences for the sake of focusing on the benefits. She's doing this to fulfill her goals, regardless of the suffering it may bring to others, or the target it may put on her back afterwards.
And, to end it off, let's take a brief look at her Sin Resistances are. And, in all honesty, they seem quite fitting. In this emotional state of going back to decieving others, of putting on the facade of bravado and fake authority for the sake of her own goals, Outis is the most hurt by Sloth and Gloom. The reminder that she has resigned herself to the Karma coming for her, and the idea of dwelling on the fear and stress that inevitability causes her.
...God now that I'm back these really just keep getting longer huh. Sorry about that. If you got this far, congratulations. You get my gratitude and the knowledge that I spent like three hours on this whole post, researching Buddhism included. There's no obligation for you to share, but I would love to know how long this took for you to read.
I wish I could promise my next analyses won't be as long, but let's be honest there's no fucking way I can be sure of that.
write. your. own. if not now, when? if not you, who? i certainly started crying at code out of sheer lack of gameplay as good as ruina; and implore you to do the same. The other option is to just be miserable, with no end in sight.
...that said, seems like this fandom needs to learn of the existence of Wisecrack:
It hurts
After talking with people in discord for the week that this has been going on, I think my feelings on the Project Moon situation are just. Like, this was a company I felt was "safe". Obviously corporations are not your friends, but this was a studio that consistently pushed out games with progressive - and at times even radical - messaging. This was a studio that has consistently written solid characters with gender as an absolute afterthought. Emma is a boy! Harold is a girl! That's how little gender matters, which, ironically, is something that matters.
I can't think of another franchise I've engaged with that just... writes women as people. I've heard George R.R. Martin is like that, but I never engaged with the TV series that introduced the US to the concept of filler or the book series it was based on. I'm gonna gloss over Lobotomy Corporation a bit here because the story only has 13 characters, but 12 of them return for Library of Ruina. In Ruina you have Binah, Angela, Nikolai, and Elena as assertive women that take control of the situations they're in. You have passive uwu smol beans like Hod and Eileen! You have characters who are war criminals and that's not a mark of a villain, that's just a part of their backstory! Some of the women here have just Done Crimes! One of the women IS a crime! And men are treated the same! There are characters with traumas and behavioral disorders who act like real people would! Lesti saw the aftermath of Love Town and started talking about food! Beef intestine no less! Philip saw his colleagues get murdered and physically manifested a mental breakdown! Xiao saw her husband get murdered and physically manifested literal burning rage!
All of the writing has been good! All of it! And it has consistently written women in a way that is flat out rare, even in 2023. And Limbus has been doing the same! Outis is assertive! Ryoshu is assertive! Hermann is assertive! Don is an idiot and Faust refuses to talk half the time! Heathcliff is assertive! Meursault is assertive! Gubo is assertive! Hong Lu is an idiot and Sinclair is/was a pathetic sop! Across the board, the character writing is just GOOD. As Lobotomy Corporation progresses, Ayin's shitty behavior becomes more and more apparent! And that all culminates with Angela being tossed aside like garbage once she's no longer useful to him, as you hear her desperate wishes to just be seen!
All of that, or at least most of that, was Kim Ji-hoon. But Kim Ji-hoon is also the person who hastily fired VellMori at 11 PM, over the phone, while he was out of office in Japan, because some incels accused his company of being sympathetic to feminists in 2023.
And it fuckin hurts that the source of those stories, the stories that I just spent three paragraphs praising, the stories that are so important to me, could turn heel in half a second like that. As if he was writing completely different stories than the ones I've been reading. And I hate that? I hate that. Because there isn't a replacement! I don't get Grandma War Crimes and Dumbass Justice Enactor in other stories! Like, maybe some will come close, maybe some will have the same exact character somewhere, but never all of it together. Never written as amazingly as the City is.
So it hurts. And the silence is loud.
it drags levels down to level 15 and then you have to complete combat nodes to level up. So I was forced to face a level 30 power enhanced boss with two levels 15 characters.
as first i was like: "wtf is this even beatable after all the changes" then tl;dr 6 turns with base sinners+F2P ego, ergo skill issue. rant is going to be of questionable nature, but i'm hoping to make an example out of Bongy on how to problemsolve the shit out of bosses/harder content.
we get an item at the start. You spooked me, so i reloaded once for Eclipse of Scarlet Moths. Coffee and Cranes (which is OP, always.) or whatever is synergistic with your team (event items say rupture/burn/bind/haste) should work too - just keep in mind the pool ego gifts through this dungeon is small and lust-heavy. Ended up picking up the latter and Helterfly's Dream (and its' taking wrath dmg for the rest of the dungeon), for no good reason, lel.
teambuilding: during the event i remember caving in and taking sous-chef gregor (why ppl do not think he's ridiciously good for abno fights is beyond me). But as per tradition, base units+F2P ego. Since we have been yeeted out of the dungeon, checking the moveset is fine. Not sure if the game shows you this after you fail. Chickens are weak to lust+envy, so 3 with lust (Ryoshu, DonQ, Heathcliff) + Hong Lu b/c Entertainment + Faust b/c Emitter. Entertainment proved useless, but base Hong Lu is still really good dps of the feast-and-famine subflavor. Emitter proved only moderately useful. The actual goodstuff, as per usual, were Faust's s2 s3 debuffs. s1 still a joke. Alternatively/additionally: fish for units that have slash/blunt resist/lust or wrath resist+ on EGO. Regardless if you actually go for these on purpose, you want to know this, so if it's down to the wire you'll know who can facetank… …is what should be done for MAXIMUM SWEATING ENGAGE, but with F2P i do that on 2nd try ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ …just decided DonQ gonna be the emergency tank, since Sancho heals.
oldschool MD: taking both event nodes as they are OP as fuck (Marinade!). then usual: ? > minifights > crossed swords > abnos. I thought you keep all sins between combat nodes, but apparently they're halved. No matter, we're farming for emitter/bodysack/sancho spam. Other surprise: it keeps resetting the movegain order. There are no pitstops, so sweaty readjusting it is. (Started with Ryoshu on 1st b/c poise, then went 'duh, need pride'/sloth crew for fast Entertainment to 45, as usual with base Hong Lu. Ignored tremor.) It turned out you get a few level ups to 30, so i just slapped them on dps (Heathcliff -> Hong Lu -> DonQ), so when Headchickens came, these units clashed and the rest did 1-sided. Order ended up like that as in old MD you could level up as a heal of sorts.
actual boss:
heals per chicken so body is not the priority
drains sp per chicken so spawns are more important (hoarded resources -> Emitter if needed)
fragile after breaking a part -> restated that boss hp isn't actually relevant
move that spawns units on-hit -> will use it once units are cleared, and is THE key skill to win clash with - all else can be facetanked
wikia says bucket is breakable-for-realsies AND is the part that spawns, so that's where 1sideds should go
as abno nodes show, spawns themselves are irrelevant as long as they do not attack someone a +% dmg modifier
other than that, best practices apply:
onesided with s1 unless Reasons (Faust kept Bongy (bucket)'s atk down)
AoE EGOs aimed so that other shots go to other units. New lookup is jankier for the aware, but iirc bucket has target weight 2, so will eat 2 shots (outside of the primary target they go front-to-back)
keeping s1 on bottom track for replacing
prognosis for 1coin vs multicoin is ALWAYS a lie
onesided paralyze et al to force later attacks to clash favorably
if you know a sinner is going to Eat Shit due to outspeed reasons you can try forcing a stagger before it happens
to further persuade you into drinking this raw ambrosia of wisdom:
Eyeballing it it looks like <80% to win, but plugging it into a calc says it's 13%! DonQ still proved great, Haste on clash win is real
'if it's irrelevant why do you mention it' you may ask. 'you'll thank me later.' is how i answer.
When I finally beat hard mode chicken I am going to guzzle a pitcher of tea over that fucks corpse. Like I do like the idea of one move being able to summon minions combined with being a minion focused enemy. It's just the funny level systems means that two of the sinners can't roll high enough to actually stop any moves and that's shit.
By the way, I've heard talks of death threats and/or someone camping out at project moon's office, can someone please share a source on that? I'm genuinely not sure where to look, is all.
@lu-is-not-ok
A VERY DISORGANIZED AND WEIRD MESS OF THOUGHTS THAT ARE ALL RELATED TO THE SODA EGO SOMEHOW
So wellcheer’s story is like, this employee getting drugged and taken aboard a ship, and eventually coming to enjoy his work there, finding it better than working in the city. In general this reads to me as the escapist fantasy of the employees, wanting something that’s more fulfilling, more satisfying, hoping for a change. While I think Hong Lu having it is somewhat self explanatory, I think we need to consider Ryoushuu as well, since both can provide context for one another. I will also bring up the fact that someone pointed out they could correlate to the types of work that give grape wellcheers, those being attachment(being kind and friendly) and repression(denying the abnormality in some way)- which I didn’t quite agree with at first, but I think I understand better now that yes, it’s likely. With that out of the way~! Let’s talk about Hong Lu, since he’s the one we understand the most about! These are not clean sections by the way. They’re ramblings of a mad man.
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wouldn't say this limits teambuilding, tho; 3rd option: ignore uptie 4 (just like i keep ignoring uptie 3 on EGO b/c it's just bigger numbers*), then once you clean out shop start with U4 on units you have figured out why they're bad, and U4 fixes exactly that. This gives longevity to fresh toys, gaining design insight is good, builds hype for to prevent burnout from grinding. Example: if mariachi sinclair doesn't get gloom on block and/or jubilo hedonista requirement 3 gloom res -> 2 gloom res i'm just. not uptying him.
So about them Uptie 4 costs:
Brain fried like egg trying to math this so late at night. Despite my knee-jerk reaction when I first saw these prices, it doesn't actually seem too horrid. As long as you're not also trying to spark every new thing that comes out in an effort to avoid the gacha in the gacha game or trying to be a completionist and uptie everything to max without grinding or spending.
(Before we get into the rest of it, this isn't going to cover the grind that leads up to Uptie 4. Everything in the game currently is beatable with Uptie 3 units and whatever you can scrounge up for EGO, so Uptie 4 is optional as of time of writing. This is just going to cover getting from 3 to 4.)
Not accounting for resources you get from the gacha (random amounts of Egoshards from dupes and an amount of Thread when your Ideality expires), an endgame F2P can get:
18 - 27 Thread per day from Luxcavation with bonuses (18 is more sustainable for module usage, so we'll say 126 Thread per week)
1 Egoshard crate from daily missions, making it 7 per week
2 Egoshard crates from weekly missions
22.5 Egoshard crates from MD2 Hard with full bonuses (13.5 crates if it's three boosted Normal runs instead, then another 3 crates per extra run afterwards)
A crate can be 1-3 shards, so it comes out to 31-93 Egoshards out of 31 crates weekly, averaging at around 62 Egoshards per week. Excess shards can be made into Thread, if needed.
Assuming you're not trying to spark any units (and, again, not accounting for stuff from the gacha), an endgame F2P player can get about one 3-star unit that was T3 up to T4 per week, with a chance to have resources left over to uptie an extra unit every other week without too much extra grind. Similar situation for TETH EGOs at ~1/week but less so for HEs, which will need another day or three unless you grind more. If you're short on Thread as a F2P, Luxcavation is better than MD2 in terms of module cost.
If you bought the pass, multiply the number of crates you get by 3. So about 93 crates per week (with an extra 3 every other week), ranging from 93-279 Egoshards and averaging at 186. A player with a paid battle pass can get at least one 3-star up to T4 from T3 in a week comfortably, with potential range to extend to two in one week without extra grind. The EGO situation doesn't change much though. A bit over one TETH a week, but only about one HE a week due to the extra costs. If you need more Thread and have the time, your modules are more efficient at MD2 than Luxcavation. If you don't have the time, Luxcavation is still good as long as you have the bonus.
The only issue I can see with the costs for Uptie 4 is that it makes it harder to experiment outside of a team you're used to, at least right now anyway. If you have meta units, you're less likely to want to grind materials to upgrade your non-meta units when it takes about a week to grind resources for your existing team and more units are still coming out that will need even more resources to get up from T1. Then again, you do still get some upgrade materials from excess items from the gacha, so your resources aren't coming exclusively from grinding unless you want them to be.
Overall, this feels like a "Project Moon saw people at the end waiting for more content and remembered they're making a gacha game" type of move. I wouldn't be shocked if they dropped the prices due to complaints, but they may be better off giving us a Luxcavation with better rewards.
no hiding The Good Stuff in the tags ;<
*clutching head* rodya and meursault would have such a good dynamic actually
I wonder if rodya would initially see meursault's indifference as like. a simpler version of her own feigned carefreeness and as a deliberate attempt to place himself as an outsider... only to realise that No, he really Is just Like That. and then she gets annoyed because it turns out that people who don't care about anything don't seem to be any fun.
(ofc he does actually care about a lot of things, just not necessarily his grander place in the world lol)
idk. nihilism vs absurdism. fun duo 👍 rodya would find meursault's genuine comfort with being a speck of dust in the universe baffling, while he would probably find her desire to assert her own importance pointless, but they could probably bond over little things like their shared desire to live in the present and appreciation of/indulgence in earthly joys. and meursault would probably listen if rodya wants to rant about anything without asking any uncomfortable questions. I think they could appreciate each other's presence.
hypothetically how big of an overlap does the limbus fandom have with the bsd fandom ……. And how would this hypothetical overlap feel about fyolai and ryofaust …………… asking for a friend ………..